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Thread: Rootsi et al. (2013) Ashkenazi Levite R1a Discussion Thread

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    I'm not defining Babylonian as Semitic either. I'm trying to say that this clade can ultimately be traced back to Central Asia where Z2124+ likely originated. Of course that doesn't rule out it traveling from Central Asia to Iran to Mesopotamia to Jewish populations.
    Agreed. A (ultimately) Central Asian origin is most likely, in my opinion.

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  3. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Humanist View Post
    Agreed. A (ultimately) Central Asian origin is most likely, in my opinion.
    Yep. But definitely not from Khazars imo. More likely Z2124+ originated in Central Asia and migrated to West Asia and Z2122+ and M582+ developed in situ from West Asian R1a clades. But the Khazar theory will never go away.

  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    But the Khazar theory will never go away.
    Yes. I am not sure why that is. Jewish Q1b (L245+) has also been suggested as a marker of the Khazars. But again, the subclade is shared with Assyrians and others. Including some Europeans, such as Sicilians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Humanist View Post
    The Q-L245 subclade has been previously dubbed the "Ashkenazi" Q1b branch. On the FTDNA Q1b page, men derived for Q-L245 consist of one or more individuals from the following groups (may not be exclusive): Jewish (Ashkenazi and Mizrahi), NW Europeans (Dutch, Irish and German), Armenian, Saudi, Iraqi, and Assyrian. Marko Heinila, I believe based on his most recent work, dates the Q-L245 TMRCA to 2600 years. Right about the time of the fall of the Neo-Assyrian empire. Perhaps a foreign element was introduced into the ME population at that time?

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  6. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    But the crypto-Jew explanation much more practical.
    Quote Originally Posted by Humanist View Post
    Yes. I am not sure why that is. Jewish Q1b (L245+) has also been suggested as a marker of the Khazars. But again, the subclade is shared with Assyrians and others. Including some Europeans, such as Sicilians.
    And my brother has an exact 12 marker match to someone from Portugal at FTDNA, speaking of the Iberian Peninsula earlier. Also in the YHRD database they updated their populations and with my brother's markers at 12 and 25 level, his top exact match is to a Uighur. At the 37 level he has no exact match. I would really like to know more about this Uighur. Khazar or not, in my opinion I do not believe that Q1b1a started out Jewish, but became Jewish. And I would love to know how. The Khazar theory will remain of interest because so little is known of them, but also because some people will twist it for political propaganda. And I find the latter most annoying.
    Last edited by Tįltos; 12-18-2013 at 08:26 PM.

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  8. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    Yep. But definitely not from Khazars imo. More likely Z2124+ originated in Central Asia and migrated to West Asia and Z2122+ and M582+ developed in situ from West Asian R1a clades. But the Khazar theory will never go away.
    Since Khazar DNA has never surfaced, and written evidence is scarce, how could you state this with any certainty? We're looking strictly at the Y chromosome, not the overall genetic profile of Levites, which is identical to other Ashkenazi populations, and is primarily a Mediterranean profile.

  9. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    Since Khazar DNA has never surfaced, and written evidence is scarce, how could you state this with any certainty? We're looking strictly at the Y chromosome, not the overall genetic profile of Levites, which is identical to other Ashkenazi populations, and is primarily a Mediterranean profile.
    Probably because not much M582+ was found in the North Caucasus and probably not much will be found in Central Asia. Z21224+ is unlikely to be a Khazar clade since its downstream lineage Z2123+ includes people as far away as Sri Lanka and England. And I believe Z2122+ is around the same age.

    Dienekes agreed on his blog that the Levite clade is likely of an iraic origin and I believe Palisto has written similar theories on his blog.

    I could ask you the same thing btw. Since no Khazar DNA as ever surfaced why associate a clade more common in Levites and West Asians with Khazars? So the Khazars left a lot of ancestry in West Asia but almost none in their homeland? Yes that sounds very likely.

  10. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    Probably because not much M582+ was found in the North Caucasus and probably not much will be found in Central Asia. Z21224+ is unlikely to be a Khazar clade since its downstream lineage Z2123+ includes people as far away as Sri Lanka and England. And I believe Z2122+ is around the same age.

    Dienekes agreed on his blog that the Levite clade is likely of an iraic origin and I believe Palisto has written similar theories on his blog.

    I could ask you the same thing btw. Since no Khazar DNA as ever surfaced why associate a clade more common in Levites and West Asians with Khazars? So the Khazars left a lot of ancestry in West Asia but almost none in their homeland? Yes that sounds very likely.
    What little information exists on the Khazars, Iranic people may have been part of the ruling elite, but by no means exculsively so. If this were true, it's amazing how far west they actually moved across the steppe to fight off the Arabs.

  11. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    What little information exists on the Khazars, Iranic people may have been part of the ruling elite, but by no means exculsively so. If this were true, it's amazing how far west they actually moved across the steppe to fight off the Arabs.
    Once again if this clade were part of the Khazar elite why is it better represented in West Asia and Levites than the areas we would expect it if were related to Khazars (Eastern Europe, Central Asia, and the North Caucasus)? The paper argued against the Khazar theory, David agrees with it, Dienekes does as well as does the Michal who is the administrator of the R1a project. So I am curious on what basis you think this clade is associated with Khazars or their Iranic ruling elite?

  12. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tįltos View Post
    And my brother has an exact 12 marker match to someone from Portugal at FTDNA, speaking of the Iberian Peninsula earlier. Also in the YHRD database they updated their populations and with my brother's markers at 12 and 25 level, his top exact match is to a Uighur. At the 37 level he has no exact match. I would really like to know more about this Uighur. Khazar or not, in my opinion I do not believe that Q1b1a started out Jewish, but became Jewish. And I would love to know how. The Khazar theory will remain of interest because so little is known of them, but also because some people will twist it for political propaganda. And I find the latter most annoying.
    The reason why I bring up Mesopotamia/Persia so often is because there are multiple lines of evidence pointing to this area as a possible source for the origin of at least a few Jewish Y-DNA lines. Given the complete record, I believe the more immediate origin of your paternal line may be from this general area (Mesopotamia/Persia) during the period between 500 BCE and 500 CE. As with the recently discussed Levite R1a line, your line may ultimately be of Central Asian origin.

    Your Uyghur matches should most certainly be investigated further, so as to understand the relationship more precisely.

    More on Uyghurs, from Wikipedia:

    Modern scholars consider modern Uyghurs to be the descendants of a number of people, including the ancient Uyghurs of Mongolia who arrived at the Tarim Basin after the fall of Uyghur Khaganate, Iranian Saka tribes, and other Indo-European peoples who inhabited the Tarim Basin before the arrival of the Mongolian Uyghurs. DNA analyses indicate that the peoples of central Asia such as the Uyghurs are all mixed Caucasian and East Asian. Uyghur activists identify with the Tarim mummies, but research into the genetics of ancient Tarim mummies and their links with modern Uyghurs remain controversial, both to Chinese government officials concerned with ethnic separatism, and to Uyghur activists concerned that research could affect their claims of being indigenous to the region.
    Last edited by Humanist; 12-18-2013 at 09:24 PM.

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  14. #30
    I read that Q1b apparently seems to be common among certain Brahmin groups as well. There has been some discussion connecting Q1b to the spread of Nestorian Christianity.

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