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Thread: Rootsi et al. (2013) Ashkenazi Levite R1a Discussion Thread

  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamluk View Post
    Well, this took me a while to digest, as I apparently had a mental block on the subject! But there are still so many mysteries that are left unsolved.
    -------------------
    What did happen to the Khazars? Where are they now? Does the Q haplogroup come into play here?

    I'm trying to sort out the issue with R1a-L342 and J1c3d among Jews and Arabs.
    - R1a-L342 is present in Ashkenazi Levites (descended from Levi, grandson of Isaac), and in the Banu Shaiba of Quraysh (descended from Ishmael, mentioned in the Qur'an as divinely appointed to guard the keys to the Ka'aba until the Day of Judgment). The Levites carry Z2122, the Quraysh carry Z2123.
    -J1c3d is present in Cohanim (descended from Levi, through Aaron), and in most Arabs with tribal origins.
    Some (hypothetical) issues floating around in my mind right now:

    One scenario is that during the Babylonian Captivity that some local Persian R1a-M582 converts were admitted to the Levite caste, and they returned to Jerusalem with the exiled Jews when Cyrus the Great released them. And from there their descendants, along with the rest of the J1c3d Jews, were subjected to the Roman Diaspora. But converts to Judaism aren't generally acceptable, from what I understand, unless this was some sort of agreement between the Jews and Cyrus.

    It is related that Abraham came from Ur, or the area around it, which we know is at the north of the Persian Gulf. It could very well be that Abraham was R1a-Z93-L342, and ultimately of Indo-Iranian origin. Ishmael's lineage eventually would give rise to R1a-Z2123-L657, as is evidenced with the Banu Shaiba, and some peninsular tribes, and there could have been gene flow into central and south Asia. The Jewish Dayan family of Aleppo (R1a-Z2123) have what appears to be a well-maintained family tree detailing their direct descent from King David. One would then extrapolate that to conclude that Jesus Christ's mother, Mary, came from a family which was R1a-Z2123! And in the lineage of Isaac occurred the Z2122-Z2123 split (?). If this scenario is to be considered, then how is it that the Cohanim are J1c3d?

    -----------
    R1a men sure knew how to move around a lot! Following their exhausting genetic footsteps keeps us circumambulating around the Caucasus and Caspian.
    I think this is some cool insight for your theory Mamluk:


    "I think the mystery he is referring to (correct me if I'm wrong Parasar), is more plot based. As to how a different YDNA lineage assimilate to become a part of the Quraish tribe. I'm venturing to guess that the pagan ritual of deciding things with a lot of arrows/divination or something to that affect was how it may have happened. They also decided lineages through divination for children/orphans etc. Also, adoption was done frequently and in Pre-Islamic Arabia, names of of the adopter were conferred to the adopted. Funny enough, this practice was forbidden following Islamic revelation; adoptions were only allowed stipulating the adopted retain their names of their original father (case and point with Zaid ibn Harith, the Islamic Prophet Muhammad's adopted son).

    With all that said, perhaps this branch of the Shaibi Clan, had an adopted forfather.

    Though to be quite frank, it's more plausible that the R1a Lineage made it's way before the Quraish tribe was established. In order to gain a deeper understanding of the picture, I feel we should study the history of the northern Adnan tribes. Technically, Adnanite tribes were Arabized. If i'm not mistaken, Quraish were Adnanite (or they claim to be). The lineage of Adnanites goes back to 6th Century BC; They resided in Northern Arabia, spanning from Egypt/Lower Syria to the eastern Mesopotamia/Persian Gulf. Distinct from the Persians, they spoke an ancient version of Arabic (Nabatean/Aramaic? correct me please) and were split into tribal allies Qedarites and Nabateans.

    "Adnan died after Nebuchadnezzar II returned to Babylon. After Adnan's death, his son Ma'ad moved away to the region of Central-Western Hijaz after the destruction of the Qedarite kingdom near Mesopotamia, and the remaining Qedarite Arabs there were displaced from their lands and forced to live in Al-Anbar province and on the banks of the Euphrates river under the rule of the Neo-Babylonian Empire.[26][27][28][29]"

    The aforementioned tribe I stated, the Dulaim tribe, is Al-Anbar provincial tribe and majority. Which just so happens to be exhibiting both J-M127 and predominately R-M512 > R-L657 so far.

    "Before 1976 the province was known as Ramadi; before 1962, it was known as Dulaim.[1]" - https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Anbar_Province Al-Anbar province is being referenced here.

    Looking everything now, in this context, I don't think it's far-fetched at all to see how R1a found it's way in the J1 pool, if these "Arabs" were originally from the north and were Arabized from Iraq.

    Sounds crazy, but I think it's plausible. Nothing in stone to really support this yet.

    Don't know how to quote myself from another thread. But these were from my recent findings."


    This in recent light of Shaibi testing positive for Y7+, and two more Shaibi clan members in Mecca turning up R-M512. Also, Dulaim tribals have surfaced up as R-M512, and R-L657 in 80% frequency so far. Including one of the hereditary tribal leaders/Shaikhs as RL657.
    Last edited by wmehar; 12-30-2015 at 06:21 PM.

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  3. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamluk View Post
    I would like to find out how much he knows about his family history, and see what parallels with mine.
    I've been corresponding with him intermittently over the past 2 years. He does not know much about his family history, except that a paternal ancestor immigrated to Palestine from Aleppo.

    The surname, "Attrash," is peculiar in Palestine, but is known in Aleppo and Damascus, where it is more accurately known as Atruş, or Otruş. There is a Mamluk-era mosque complex in Aleppo named Atruş Jami' (Atrush Mosque) located in a medieval neighborhood called 'Ajam, or Acem, which means "Foreign," and sometimes connoted someone Persian, but not necessarily from Iran, but from all the lands of 'Ajam which included the Caspian, Caucasus and Central Asian "-stans."
     
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  5. #303
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    There are Atrash's among the Druze of southern Syria — most famously, the singer Farid al-Atrash and his sister Asmahan.

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  7. #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by wandering_amorite View Post
    There are Atrash's among the Druze of southern Syria — most famously, the singer Farid al-Atrash and his sister Asmahan.
    Yes, my father used to listen to his music.
     
    My avatar is the Turkic-Bulgar symbol of the Mamluk sultan, Baybars, whose name means "chief leopard." He transplanted the steppe-style comitatus and postal system to the sultanate, and installed his secret couriers to operate it. (My surname is a relic of these Kipchak-Cuman couriers.) This leopard symbol is often found on structures he commissioned throughout Palestine. A similar one is used as the emblem of the Kazan Tatars, and is portrayed as a snow leopard, Aq-Bars.

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  9. #305
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    Iraqi Jewish sample 482973 is a close match of Ashkenazi Levites: 241703 Wexler, 40651 Phillips and N107659 Schiff.

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  11. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by napobo3 View Post
    Iraqi Jewish sample 482973 is a close match of Ashkenazi Levites: 241703 Wexler, 40651 Phillips and N107659 Schiff.
    Wexler as in... Paul Wexler?
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  13. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by napobo3 View Post
    Iraqi Jewish sample 482973 is a close match of Ashkenazi Levites: 241703 Wexler, 40651 Phillips and N107659 Schiff.
    He is FGC18215+
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FGC18215/
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