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Thread: New early branch in P312

  1. #1
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    New early branch in P312

    FTDNA is reporting that the DF19 phylogenetic equivalent block has been broken. [Edit they are reporting Z4161+ DF19- calls that imply the block is broken. They have not done their "hap assurance" or hands-on interpretation and analysis yet.]

    Z4161 now marks an earlier branch. A person with an EKA from Czech Republic is P312+ Z4161+ DF19-. [Edit DF19-].

    Until now everyone who was Z4161+ was DF19+. Most people think DF19 in today’s populations looks northern and possibly Germanic.

    Here is what DF19 project thinks.
    https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-df19/about
    Last edited by Mikewww; 06-20-2019 at 01:29 PM.

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  3. #2
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    P312>Z4161>DF19>DF88
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    J2a1a1e...or g
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    I just saw him in the DF19 group list! Cool!
    R1b>M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833 >S4281>S4268>Z17112 (S17075-)

    Y-cousin: 6DRIF-23 (DF19>>Z17112+, S17075+)

    Ancestors: Francis Cooke (M223/I2a2a) b1583; Hester Mahieu (Cooke) (J1c2 mtDNA) b.1584; Richard Warren (E-M35) b1578; Elizabeth Walker (Warren) (H1j mtDNA) b1583;
    John Mead (I2a1/P37.2) b1634; Rev. Joseph Hull (I1, L1301+ L1302-) b1595; Benjamin Harrington (M223/I2a2a-Y5729) b1618; Joshua Griffith (L21>DF13) b1593;
    John Wing (U106) b1584; Hermann Wilhelm (DF19) b1635

  4. #3
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    P312>Z4161>DF19>DF88
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    So now the DF19 block on the Big Tree has a "hat" block like L21 does

    https://www.ytree.net/
    R1b>M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833 >S4281>S4268>Z17112 (S17075-)

    Y-cousin: 6DRIF-23 (DF19>>Z17112+, S17075+)

    Ancestors: Francis Cooke (M223/I2a2a) b1583; Hester Mahieu (Cooke) (J1c2 mtDNA) b.1584; Richard Warren (E-M35) b1578; Elizabeth Walker (Warren) (H1j mtDNA) b1583;
    John Mead (I2a1/P37.2) b1634; Rev. Joseph Hull (I1, L1301+ L1302-) b1595; Benjamin Harrington (M223/I2a2a-Y5729) b1618; Joshua Griffith (L21>DF13) b1593;
    John Wing (U106) b1584; Hermann Wilhelm (DF19) b1635

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    FTDNA is reporting that the DF19 phylogenetic equivalent block has been broken.

    Z4161 now marks an earlier branch. A person with an EKA from Czech Republic is P312+ Z4161+ DF19+.

    Until now everyone who was Z4161+ was DF19+. Most people think DF19 in today’s populations looks northern and possibly Germanic.

    Here is what DF19 project thinks.
    https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-df19/about
    It looks like you meant to write DF19- since that is the only way to prove that Z4161 is an earlier branch and there is only one person in the SNP list with DF19- and Z4161+
    Last edited by ArmandoR1b; 06-20-2019 at 12:01 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmandoR1b View Post
    It looks like you meant to write DF19-
    Yes, DF19-. He is DF19-.

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    I don't think having a Z4161+ DF19- person from the Czech Republic means that this is where DF19 people originate. It is possible and this split of Z4161+ DF19- and Z4161+ DF19+ is back in the very early descendants of P312.

    I want to emphasize how early this is. There are many mutation rates floating around out there and people often use 144 years per SNP, but this is per ComBed region coverage only and old Big Y coverage.

    New Big Y coverage and FGC Elite (which has been out there for a while) are now on par and we are talking about mutation rates across their coverage as about one 85 years per SNP.

    Z4161 stands alone without equivalents so that means the single Z4161 MRCA man is only one SNP (avg. 85 years) away from the P312 MRCA.

    FTDNA has not formally updated their tree which means they have not done a direct "hands-on" interpretation yet so there is a chance they find the Z4161 call flaky or even recurrent but as of now the guy is R-Z4161*.

    The surname appears Germanic so this could be Germanic wanderings or if there were other movements related to what was referred to as the Sudetenland.

    On the other hand, this is possibly one more point of evidence on the stack that DF19 became Germanic early on perhaps as an original or proto-Germanic tribe member. L238 also has a lot of evidence leaning this way.

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  9. #7
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    P312>Z4161>DF19>DF88
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    I wonder if it might turn up in some of those indeterminate "other P312" ancient samples that are in publications?

    If they are only looking for DF19 and/or S232 (another member of the DF19 block I've seen used in older threads), then Poppa Z4161 might have been in the Beaker population studies all along, but not identified yet.
    Last edited by Dewsloth; 06-20-2019 at 09:05 PM.
    R1b>M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833 >S4281>S4268>Z17112 (S17075-)

    Y-cousin: 6DRIF-23 (DF19>>Z17112+, S17075+)

    Ancestors: Francis Cooke (M223/I2a2a) b1583; Hester Mahieu (Cooke) (J1c2 mtDNA) b.1584; Richard Warren (E-M35) b1578; Elizabeth Walker (Warren) (H1j mtDNA) b1583;
    John Mead (I2a1/P37.2) b1634; Rev. Joseph Hull (I1, L1301+ L1302-) b1595; Benjamin Harrington (M223/I2a2a-Y5729) b1618; Joshua Griffith (L21>DF13) b1593;
    John Wing (U106) b1584; Hermann Wilhelm (DF19) b1635

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