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Thread: Re-integrating Archaeology: A Contribution to aDNA Studies and the Migration . . .

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    I couldnt have written a paper myself that would fit any closer to my own views . . .
    I agree, and Furholt's new name for the complex really solves the Bell Beaker problem nicely. The problem I'm referring to is the eternal problem of the confusion of the two very different types of Bell Beaker people and what to call them to set them apart. The fact is they differ from each other more than the SGBR element in Bell Beaker differs from Corded Ware.
     


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  3. #12
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    He made a comment about Sion being one of the exceptions to the rule of burial type and genetics in beaker people. I cant remember what they found at Sion in terms of genetics. Can anyone remind me? Im assuming they meant that the burials were kind of megalithic is some ways but had steppe genetics? Is that right? For some reason I have no memory of ancient DNA from Sion/Petit Chasseur

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    He made a comment about Sion being one of the exceptions to the rule of burial type and genetics in beaker people. I cant remember what they found at Sion in terms of genetics. Can anyone remind me? Im assuming they meant that the burials were kind of megalithic is some ways but had steppe genetics? Is that right? For some reason I have no memory of ancient DNA from Sion/Petit Chasseur
    They found an R1b-M269 and an R1b-L151 at Sion, both with steppe dna, but both came from a cist burial that dated to just after the destruction phase, when the old stelae were thrown down and broken. The cist those two were buried in was constructed from broken stelae.
     


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    Ireland of course did have a brand new type of megalith that was associated strongly (in their primary use layer) with bell beaker and date mostly to 2450-1900BC. However, they are frequently small and simply like stone boxes that were probably covered in a cairn. Careful consideration of the original period of use (they were often re-used far later after breaks of centuries, even millennia) shows that they tended to have a short period of use and just a few burials. Although often disturbed, the burials within them are clearly individual burials. The pattern is hard to be certain of due to so many being disturbed, but they look to me like they were used by a single family over just a few decades or perhaps a generation or two then abandoned for a long period. So, they were clearly not in the sort of collective Neolithic traditions with their very long term use, odd curating and re-arranging of bones etc. They were more like a family vault in which a generation or two of single burials would be placed. There is no obvious parallel for the shape, conctruction, orientation of Wedge Tombs in other megaliths of the beaker era. That is why I suspect they are an expression in stone of similar sort of roofed semi subterranian burial chambers (far bigger than needed for just one burial) that were done in wood in Britain in the earliest beaker period in southern England and could and sometimes were reopened to be reused. https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...burial&f=false

    Its the burial tradition and basic structure rather than the materials that matters. This sort of thing should not surprise anyone because megalithic tombs like Wedge Tombs, Clyde Cairns, Cotswold-Servern Tombs etc were clearly stone version (in terms of plan, shape, orientation and other features) of similar long barrow monuments of earth, clay and chalk rubble found in the lowlands of England and Scotland. You call that a skeuomorph in archaeology - basically meaning 'the same thing but made in different materials'.

    I think Wedge Tombs were an expression of that same tradition of reopenable semi subterranean large chambers made in wood in the early beaker phase in southern England.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    They found an R1b-M269 and an R1b-L151 at Sion, both with steppe dna, but both came from a cist burial that dated to just after the destruction phase, when the old stelae were thrown down and broken. The cist those two were buried in was constructed from broken stelae.
    Thank Steve. I think my memory is getting worse with age! I just had a quick skim again of H and H. So they are the second beaker wave that was linked to central Europe and the Rhine. The phase they destroyed was the 1st beaker phase which seem to relate to the south-west European pre-2500BC type of non-steppe beaker. Its a pity they didnt test the three different phases - the pre-beaker copper age (Remedello daggers etc on the early stelae), the early south-west European type beaker and finally the ones they did test who destroyed the stelae. That would have been very interesting. The Iberian evidence would suggest that the 1st beaker phase would have been non-steppe, non-M269 and probably like the pre-beaker copper age phase, while the second beaker phase (the destroyers) are the ones they did test. Would have been nice to have the full sequence of phases tested to show the genetic change. However, I think it would come out very similar to the Iberian evidence with two different types of beaker people.

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    There are some issues with this paper, as pointed out here...

    https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/...59782202137859

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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    There are some issues with this paper, as pointed out here...

    https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/...59782202137859
    Maybe you could bring up those issues here?

    I like your blog, but chiefly for what you have to say. I don't like wading through the rest of it. Sorry.
     


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    It will be interesting to try to think in terms of Furholt's SGBR and see what effect that has on the paradigm.

    The differences in y-dna haplogroup distribution are still puzzling. I'd really like to see that puzzle worked out and traced backwards as far as possible.
     


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    I'm just a superficial kind of guy who likes executive summaries, ha ha. When it comes to R1a, my L664 seems to be ignored. Since they are supposed to be the earliest branch of R1a to migrate into NW Europe, when did they migrate? It may have been before the domestication of the horse. Anyway, I'd like to see L664 specifically addressed by experts.

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  17. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    There are some issues with this paper, as pointed out here...

    https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/...59782202137859
    I didnt find a lot of comments from yourself - which are normally very insightful. Just a lot of mad gibberish and paranoid nonsense from the usual suspects. I cant find much wrong with this paper at all. In fact I think its extremely insightful

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