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Thread: Re-integrating Archaeology: A Contribution to aDNA Studies and the Migration . . .

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    It will be interesting to try to think in terms of Furholt's SGBR and see what effect that has on the paradigm.

    The differences in y-dna haplogroup distribution are still puzzling. I'd really like to see that puzzle worked out and traced backwards as far as possible.
    It doesnt worry me that Yamnaya, the bulk of CW and bell beaker have different y lineages dominating them. They do share the domination of one young y lineage in common -even if that ylineage differs for each group it still shows they had a similarity of social structure. They all look like they are dominated by clan type societies that were rapidly expanding and geographically spreading. I just think its a feature of that kind of society that one male line can expand dramatically while others either wither away or wait their turn for an opportunity. Also the steppe was a vast place with a load of cultures and many cultures have regional variants, most of which are not sampled. We havent found L51 or the right type of R1a yet on the steppes to explain CW and beaker because the sampling of steppe cultures is absolutely inadequate at present.Its barely scratched the surface.

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baltimore1937 View Post
    I'm just a superficial kind of guy who likes executive summaries, ha ha. When it comes to R1a, my L664 seems to be ignored. Since they are supposed to be the earliest branch of R1a to migrate into NW Europe, when did they migrate? It may have been before the domestication of the horse. Anyway, I'd like to see L664 specifically addressed by experts.
    According to YFull the tmrca of L664 is 3900 ybp or around 1950 BC. That seems kind of too young to be the earliest R1a into NW Europe.

    I'm definitely not up on the latest info on R1a though.
     


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  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    According to YFull the tmrca of L664 is 3900 ybp or around 1950 BC. That seems kind of too young to be the earliest R1a into NW Europe.

    I'm definitely not up on the latest info on R1a though.
    I just looked up:

    https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo....shtml#origins

    So I had the wrong idea about L664.
    Last edited by Baltimore1937; 06-26-2019 at 04:28 AM.

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  6. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    It doesnt worry me that Yamnaya, the bulk of CW and bell beaker have different y lineages dominating them. They do share the domination of one young y lineage in common -even if that ylineage differs for each group it still shows they had a similarity of social structure. They all look like they are dominated by clan type societies that were rapidly expanding and geographically spreading. I just think its a feature of that kind of society that one male line can expand dramatically while others either wither away or wait their turn for an opportunity. Also the steppe was a vast place with a load of cultures and many cultures have regional variants, most of which are not sampled. We havent found L51 or the right type of R1a yet on the steppes to explain CW and beaker because the sampling of steppe cultures is absolutely inadequate at present.Its barely scratched the surface.
    I fully agree. It's legitimate to wonder about the Y-distribution, but it's insane to let a concern becoming an obsession. That said I'm unable to open the link given by Bernard, it's very frustrating.
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    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    I fully agree. It's legitimate to wonder about the Y-distribution, but it's insane to let a concern becoming an obsession. That said I'm unable to open the link given by Bernard, it's very frustrating.
    From France you have to use a proxy or a vpn to open the link

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    According to YFull the tmrca of L664 is 3900 ybp or around 1950 BC. That seems kind of too young to be the earliest R1a into NW Europe.

    I'm definitely not up on the latest info on R1a though.
    It's the ancestor of L664 which is CTS4385 that is considered the oldest branch of R1a in NW Europe.
    Last edited by Northman; 06-26-2019 at 10:30 AM.
    Grandma's mt (Ellison); U5b2c2
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    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    I fully agree. It's legitimate to wonder about the Y-distribution, but it's insane to let a concern becoming an obsession. That said I'm unable to open the link given by Bernard, it's very frustrating.
    Off on a tangent but since you mentioned it Insanity i think it seems to be pretty common in genetics circles usually due to obsession or people who have wagered part of their identity on a theory and ended up with cognitive dissonance that builds as contrary evidence accumulates.

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  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northman View Post
    It's the ancestor of L664 which is CTS4385 that is considered the oldest branch of R1a in NW Europe.
    It's not the oldest branch in NW Europ unless that can be directly demonstrated with ancient DNA. As far as I know, it can't, so at best it's the most basal branch of R1a present in NW Europe that may or may not have arrived there first.

    Having said that, aren't there a couple of instances of L664 in German Corded Ware samples?

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    Quote Originally Posted by xenus View Post
    Off on a tangent but since you mentioned it Insanity i think it seems to be pretty common in genetics circles usually due to obsession or people who have wagered part of their identity on a theory and ended up with cognitive dissonance that builds as contrary evidence accumulates.
    Yeah, this is a huge problem in this scene. One obvious case is a guy who believes that Uralic languages expaned from the North Pontic steppe along with the Corded Ware culture, and it's rather unlikely that he'll ever change his mind no matter what.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xenus View Post
    Off on a tangent but since you mentioned it Insanity i think it seems to be pretty common in genetics circles usually due to obsession or people who have wagered part of their identity on a theory and ended up with cognitive dissonance that builds as contrary evidence accumulates.
    In my experience one sees that mostly with the various ethno-nationalists, who want whatever their y-chromosome haplogroup is to be absolutely aboriginal to their native land, or who want to claim their homeland as the birthplace of the Indo-European language family or of Germanic or whatever.

    My y-chromosome ancestors, as far as I can tell, were Welshmen, at least within genealogical time. I don't know of anything Wales claims to be absolutely aboriginal for, except maybe the recipes for Jack Daniels and Evan Williams whiskeys.
     


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    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
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    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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