Poll: What should the type of Bell Beaker with R1b-M269 and steppe dna be called?

Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 50

Thread: What should the R1b-M269/steppe dna-type of Bell Beaker be called?

  1. #11
    Suspended Account
    Posts
    13,010
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF41>FGC36981
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a2c3a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-DF27>DF83
    mtDNA (P)
    K1a1a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    Quote Originally Posted by JMcB View Post
    I voted for Kurgan Bell Beaker. Mostly because I think it’s a catchier label and it covers all of the bases. SGBR is too cumbersome in my opinion and requires more unpacking for those who don’t follow the subject. Steppe is also good but Kurgan Bell Beaker has a ring to it, that none of the others have.
    That's true. If one hasn't read Furholt's paper, "SGBR" is mystifying and wants too much explaining.

    Hmmm . . . too bad I voted SGBR already!

    Of course, for those not already familiar with the subject, all of those monikers want explaining.
    Last edited by rms2; 06-28-2019 at 03:11 PM.

  2. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     JMcB (06-28-2019),  Power77 (06-28-2019)

  3. #12
    Suspended Account
    Posts
    13,010
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF41>FGC36981
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a2c3a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-DF27>DF83
    mtDNA (P)
    K1a1a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    I see someone voted for no change, i.e., just keep calling all of Bell Beaker Bell Beaker.

    The problem I see with that is that it is sledgehammer-to-the-head obvious that there is a pretty big chasm between early Iberian Bell Beaker on the one hand, and the R1b-M269/steppe dna type of Bell Beaker on the other.

    The latter has more in common with Corded Ware than it does with early Iberian Bell Beaker.

    Lumping both types together under the same rubric is a recipe for confusion, IMHO.

  4. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (06-29-2019),  JMcB (06-28-2019),  Power77 (06-28-2019)

  5. #13
    Suspended Account
    Posts
    13,010
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF41>FGC36981
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a2c3a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-DF27>DF83
    mtDNA (P)
    K1a1a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    This BB graphic by Marie Besse is illustrative of at least the major differences in burial rite between the two main types of BB. I'm not sure why it doesn't show the situation in Britain, Ireland, and Iberia.

    Bell Beaker collective graves vs. individual single graves Marie Besse.jpg

  6. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (06-29-2019),  JMcB (06-28-2019),  Power77 (06-28-2019),  Ruderico (06-28-2019)

  7. #14
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    2,146
    Sex
    Location
    United States
    Ethnicity
    LebaGermish
    Y-DNA (P)
    P312>Z4161>DF19>DF88
    mtDNA (M)
    J2a1a1e
    Y-DNA (M)
    J2a1 Z6065>Y7708>M47
    mtDNA (P)
    H1j

    United States of America Lebanon Germany United Kingdom Belgium Switzerland
    Single Steppe Beaker, as in "A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step."

    Single Grave, Steppe component.
    R1b>M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833 >S4281>S4268>Z17112>BY44243

    Ancestors: Francis Cooke (M223/I2a2a) b1583; Hester Mahieu (Cooke) (J1c2 mtDNA) b.1584; Richard Warren (E-M35) b1578; Elizabeth Walker (Warren) (H1j mtDNA) b1583;
    John Mead (I2a1/P37.2) b1634; Rev. Joseph Hull (I1, L1301+ L1302-) b1595; Benjamin Harrington (M223/I2a2a-Y5729) b1618; Joshua Griffith (L21>DF13) b1593;
    John Wing (U106) b1584; Thomas Gunn (DF19) b1605; Hermann Wilhelm (DF19) b1635

  8. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Dewsloth For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (06-29-2019),  Power77 (06-28-2019),  rms2 (06-28-2019)

  9. #15
    Suspended Account
    Posts
    13,010
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF41>FGC36981
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a2c3a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-DF27>DF83
    mtDNA (P)
    K1a1a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    Quote Originally Posted by Dewsloth View Post
    Single Steppe Beaker, as in "A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step."

    Single Grave, Steppe component.
    Or YPBB for "Yamnaya Package Bell Beaker".

    Sounds like a shout of exultation: Yip-bee-bee!

    Yamnaya package_Fig. 45_Harrison and Heyd 2007 page 197.jpg

  10. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (06-29-2019),  Dewsloth (06-28-2019),  Power77 (06-28-2019)

  11. #16
    Suspended Account
    Posts
    13,010
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF41>FGC36981
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a2c3a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-DF27>DF83
    mtDNA (P)
    K1a1a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    Wow, looks like Steppe Bell Beaker is popular, although Kurgan Bell Beaker is not far behind.

    Both of those are good.

  12. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (06-29-2019),  Power77 (06-28-2019)

  13. #17
    Suspended Account
    Posts
    13,010
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF41>FGC36981
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a2c3a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-DF27>DF83
    mtDNA (P)
    K1a1a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    Here is a list of some of the reasons to select a new name for the R1b-M269/steppe dna type of Bell Beaker.

    Early Iberian Bell Beaker

    Collective, Neolithic-farmer-style burials
    Skeletons short in stature
    Skeletons gracile (slight or slender in build)
    Dolichocephalic skulls (long heads)
    Y-dna I2a
    No steppe autosomal dna
    Elements of the Beaker burial package missing, especially when it comes to the suite of weapons and horse bones

    SGBR/Kurgan/Steppe Bell Beaker

    Single Graves in pits (yama) under round burial mounds (kurgans)
    Full BB suite of artifacts, including weapons and horse bones
    Y-dna R1b-M269, especially R1b-P312
    Steppe autosomal dna
    Robust skeletons (not gracile)
    Tendency toward brachycephaly (round heads)
    Male skeletons tall for the period

    Did I leave anything out?

    Olalde et al found no Iberian component in the R1b-M269/steppe dna type of Bell Beaker, not even in the Neolithic Farmer part of its autosomal dna.

  14. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (06-29-2019),  Helgenes50 (06-30-2019),  Power77 (06-28-2019)

  15. #18
    Suspended Account
    Posts
    13,010
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF41>FGC36981
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a2c3a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-DF27>DF83
    mtDNA (P)
    K1a1a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    I thought SGBR would be more of a hit than it apparently is. Well, give it time, I guess.

  16. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (06-29-2019),  Power77 (06-29-2019)

  17. #19
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,673
    Sex
    Location
    Tierra de Ayllon
    Y-DNA (P)
    U152>L2>Z49>Z142>
    mtDNA (M)
    H1
    Y-DNA (M)
    I2a2a1b2a1b1>Y4925
    mtDNA (P)
    H37

    England Scotland Wales Germany Northern Ireland Ireland
    Quote Originally Posted by JMcB View Post
    ...SGBR is too cumbersome in my opinion and requires more unpacking for those who donít follow the subject...
    What about just Single Grave Beaker vs Collective Grave Beaker?


    37% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German, 3% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French/Dutch, 1% India
    Hidden Content

  18. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to MitchellSince1893 For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (06-29-2019),  Power77 (06-29-2019),  rms2 (06-29-2019)

  19. #20
    Suspended Account
    Posts
    13,010
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF41>FGC36981
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a2c3a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-DF27>DF83
    mtDNA (P)
    K1a1a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    What about just Single Grave Beaker vs Collective Grave Beaker?

    . . .
    Short and sweet, and both would come to signify all the other differences between the two categories.

    I like it.

    SGB vs. CGB.

  20. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     MitchellSince1893 (06-29-2019),  Power77 (06-29-2019)

Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Bell Beaker R1b-L21
    By rms2 in forum R1b-L21
    Replies: 623
    Last Post: 06-15-2020, 12:15 AM
  2. Bell Beaker and V
    By JonikW in forum V
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 05-08-2019, 09:08 AM
  3. L2 in Bell Beaker
    By Jean-Pierre in forum L2
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 02-21-2018, 11:22 PM
  4. Replies: 7
    Last Post: 11-25-2017, 10:25 PM
  5. R-L21+ = Bell Beaker?
    By evon in forum R1b-L21
    Replies: 35
    Last Post: 04-08-2015, 08:47 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •