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Thread: Ancient DNA sheds light on the genetic origins of early Iron Age Philistines

  1. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    J1 in the Caucasus is overwhelmingly Z1842, its TMRCA with L862 is 18,000 years old. In other words, there's a +12,000 year gap between J1 in the Caucasus and the SW Asian branches of this lineage. Also, it isn't at all clear going off the ancient data that the pre-Arab West Semites were "predominantly E". As a matter of fact one of the MBA Sidonians was J1-FGC11 (as you can see on the tree I posted, this lineage is tightly correlated with the OSA and Arabic branches of the Semitic language tree, I decided not to include ancient samples on this tree). This underscores a very complex and long-winded association between J1-L862 and Semitic-speaking groups in time and space and gives the lie to the notion that the Arab expansion was some sort of huge milestone.

    Granted, the sample count is far from ideal, and I would not exactly be surprised if it turned out E-M34 and E-Z830 vastly outnumbered J1... But still, that's not what we're seeing so far, and you seem keen on discarding the ancient genomic evidence.
    The point about J1 is at once perfectly accurate and wholly irrelevant to the link between branches of J1 and Semitic languages. It's a perfect example of the reasoning some people take to such an extreme that they'll dismiss even overwhelming evidence. I'd give them the benefit of the doubt if they hadn't followed it up by describing something as complex and to this point genetically very underclarified as the Bantu Expansion as a founder effect.

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  3. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mesamones View Post
    J1 only reaches such high frequencies among isolated populations such as Yemenis, Sudanese Arabs and Marsh Arabs, it reaches between 20% and 50% in most Arab groups. The highest frequencies of J1 are found in Caucasian-speakers not Semitic-speakers. Arabs are also the product of a founder effect akin to the Bantu Expansion, pre-Arab Expansion West Semites (Palestinian Christians, Cypriots, Dead Sea Jordanians) are predominantly E. As for aDNA samples, Sardinia alone yielded several times more samples than the Levant, there are far too few samples to reach a conclusion.
    The most common subclade found in Cyprus is actually J2a which is shared by over a quarter of Greek Cypriot men (25.3%). J2b is 6.8% and J1 is 7.3%. The E subclades are largely divided between E-M123 (11.3%) and E-V13 (8.2%). The latter has been seen as signature of the early Balkan Bronze Age and may perhaps have been brought to Cyprus by the Mycenaeans. There is little doubt that E-M123 has a Semitic or proto-Semitic origin, and subclades include E-M34 and E-M84. As hartaisarlag correctly says, there is no evidence currently available of Semitic-speakers having a presence in Cyprus prior to the Phoenicians, who arrived at the beginning of the first Millenium BCE. It is highly probable that when the first Greeks migrated prior to this, from the early Bronze Age, they actually encountered Anatolian Indo-European speakers on the island. Of course, we cannot entirely rule out the possibility that some, or at least a few, communities on the island were Semitic-speaking.

    My own subclade, E-BY63615, descends from E-M84 and is uniquely shared with a Palestinian family of Christian Orthodox origin. Any day now my Big Y-700 upgrade results should come through which might clarify the matter further. My family history, if it is to be believed, points to a non-Cypriot origin of our Y haplogroup, with fingers being pointed at the Pontus. Whether or not this is true, given that the way upstream E-M123 represents just 11.3% of Greek Cypriots, we must represent a tiny fraction of Cypriots.

    Btw, the above figures are taken from an average of Greek Cypriot Y haplogroups based on the studies by Heraclides et al (2017) and Voskarides et al (2016).
    Last edited by Andrewid; 07-10-2019 at 10:52 PM.

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  5. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrewid View Post
    The most common subclade found in Cyprus is actually J2a which is shared by over a quarter of Greek Cypriot men (25.3%). J2b is 6.8% and J1 is 7.3%. The E subclades are largely divided between E-M123 (11.3%) and E-V13 (8.2%). The latter has been seen as signature of the early Balkan Bronze Age and may perhaps have been brought to Cyprus by the Mycenaeans. There is little doubt that E-M123 has a Semitic or proto-Semitic origin, and subclades include E-M34 and E-M84. As hartaisarlag correctly says, there is no evidence currently available of Semitic-speakers having a presence in Cyprus prior to the Phoenicians, who arrived at the beginning of the first Millenium BCE. It is highly probable that when the first Greeks migrated prior to this, from the early Bronze Age, they actually encountered Anatolian Indo-European speakers on the island. Of course, we cannot entirely rule out the possibility that some, or at least a few, communities on the island were Semitic-speaking.

    My own subclade, E-BY63615, descends from E-M84 and is uniquely shared with a Palestinian family of Christian Orthodox origin. Any day now my Big Y-700 upgrade results should come through which might clarify the matter further. My family history, if it is to be believed, points to a non-Cypriot origin of our Y haplogroup, with fingers being pointed at the Pontus. Whether or not this is true, given that the way upstream E-M123 represents just 11.3% of Greek Cypriots, we must represent a tiny fraction of Cypriots.

    Btw, the above figures are taken from an average of Greek Cypriot Y haplogroups based on the studies by Heraclides et al (2017) and Voskarides et al (2016).
    Has anyone ever estimated the TMRCA of E-BY63615?
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  7. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by hartaisarlag View Post
    Has anyone ever estimated the TMRCA of E-BY63615?
    The relevant Palestinian family is also upgrading to Big Y-700. Once our results come through, we are both uploading them to YFull and will hopefully have a TMRCA A manager of the Y-14899 project at FTDNA (our upstream parent), has informed me that it divides into E-Y14891 (Jewish), E-F1539 (Muslim), and E-BY63615 (Orthodox Christian). Y-14899 itself has a TMRCA of 7.500 ybp

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mesamones View Post
    J1 only reaches such high frequencies among isolated populations such as Yemenis, Sudanese Arabs and Marsh Arabs, it reaches between 20% and 50% in most Arab groups. The highest frequencies of J1 are found in Caucasian-speakers not Semitic-speakers. Arabs are also the product of a founder effect akin to the Bantu Expansion, pre-Arab Expansion West Semites (Palestinian Christians, Cypriots, Dead Sea Jordanians) are predominantly E. As for aDNA samples, Sardinia alone yielded several times more samples than the Levant, there are far too few samples to reach a conclusion.
    i think your knowledge about dna in middle east stopped in the 90's of the last century.
    first of all, yemen is not an isolated country.
    second, this new British study done in 2017 states that J1 is 71% in saudi arabia.
    https://www.fsigenetics.com/article/...267-3/fulltext.
    5 ancient dna from bronze age to iron age are under j1, that's more important than all your Sardinia and cyprus stuff.

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  11. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrewid View Post
    The relevant Palestinian family is also upgrading to Big Y-700. Once our results come through, we are both uploading them to YFull and will hopefully have a TMRCA A manager of the Y-14899 project at FTDNA (our upstream parent), has informed me that it divides into E-Y14891 (Jewish), E-F1539 (Muslim), and E-BY63615 (Orthodox Christian). Y-14899 itself has a TMRCA of 7.500 ybp
    Looking forward. Seems a big wave of Big Y-700’s is coming.
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  13. #177
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    Speaking of the Philistines, it looks like the city of Ziklag may have just been found...

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/archae...uge-from-saul/

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  15. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by sam-iJ-ZS1727 View Post
    i think your knowledge about dna in middle east stopped in the 90's of the last century.
    first of all, yemen is not an isolated country.
    second, this new British study done in 2017 states that J1 is 71% in saudi arabia.
    https://www.fsigenetics.com/article/...267-3/fulltext.
    5 ancient dna from bronze age to iron age are under j1, that's more important than all your Sardinia and cyprus stuff.
    Yemen is full of mountains, it has remained extremely isolated thanks to its topography unlike Saudi Arabia that was settled and conquered by many foreigners. According to Bekada et al. 2013 (618 samples) Ethnic Saudis are 44.01% J1 and 6.47% J2.

    As for these ancient individuals, they do not really matter, the AA language family was created and carried by E-M35 individuals, not by J1 individuals. They may have a played a role in the diffusion of a specific branch but not in the creation of the Semitic language family.

  16. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mesamones View Post
    Yemen is full of mountains, it has remained extremely isolated thanks to its topography unlike Saudi Arabia that was settled and conquered by many foreigners. According to Bekada et al. 2013 (618 samples) Ethnic Saudis are 44.01% J1 and 6.47% J2.

    As for these ancient individuals, they do not really matter, the AA language family was created and carried by E-M35 individuals, not by J1 individuals. They may have a played a role in the diffusion of a specific branch but not in the creation of the Semitic language family.
    sorry to say: that's absolute nonsense

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  18. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by C Ehret - ‎2004
    The geography of the M35/215 (or 215/M35) lineage, which is of Horn/East African origin, is largely concordant with the range of Afroasiatic. Underhill et al. state that this lineage was carried from Africa during the “Mesolithic” (14). The distributions of the Afroasiatic subfamilies and this lineage can best be explained by invoking movements that occurred before the emergence of food production as well as after.
    E-M35 is acknowledged by scholars as the sole Afroasiatic lineage whereas J1 is a latecomer in the Levant and more globally in the Middle East. The arrival of J1 circa 2500 BC matches the arrival of Anatolian/West-Central Asian people like the Hurrians and the Gutians. E-M84 isn't Semitic either, both E-M84 and J1 were found together in Bronze Age Central Asia where they originated. The only known lineage whose TMRCA matches the expansion of Semitic (into North Africa) is E-M81.
    Last edited by Mesamones; 07-15-2019 at 06:14 PM.

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