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Thread: Ancient DNA sheds light on the genetic origins of early Iron Age Philistines

  1. #11
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    I generally wouldn't trust Gedmatch calculators with ancient samples such as these, especially if said calculators are designed with contemporary variation in mind.

    Using some of these samples to proxy Western Jews would also be interesting given the apparently close proximity of some of the IA1 Philistines to them, but I doubt this should be taken too seriously either. It is quite ironical to say the least that present-day Jews are genetically so similar to the Israelites' traditional enemy.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 07-03-2019 at 08:21 PM.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    New version of the PC Bible will need to be written
    “Samson killed 1000 Europeans with the jawbone of an ass”

    "European" is a bit of a buzzword in this context, to be honest. In the geographical sense, why not, but such a concept really did not exist back then. From a genetic standpoint, the Mycenaeans (who are undoubtedly the population which the Philistines initially resembled the most going off those results) are an Eastern Mediterranean population similar to present-day South Italians, Western Jews and Aegean Greeks, technically intermediate between European and Middle Eastern clines of variation.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  7. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    I generally wouldn't trust Gedmatch calculators with ancient samples such as these, especially if said calculators are designed with contemporary variation in mind.

    Using some of these samples to proxy Western Jews would also be interesting given the apparently close proximity of some of the IA1 Philistines to them, but I doubt this should be taken too seriously either. It is quite ironical to say the least that present-day Jews are genetically so similar to the Israelites' traditional enemy.
    Yep, history is having it's laugh today - but you and I have been pondering this for quite some time - this is essentially to be expected, given the (now apparently much later acquired) Greco-Roman admixture among Western Jews.

    I would try to use IA2, not IA1, and it seems this Mycenaean-like ancestry was very minimal even among the Philistines themselves, at least in Ashkelon. I wonder what was the situation in other Philistine poleis - Ashdod, Gaza, Ekron and Gath - maybe some of them had this Aegean-like admixture lasting longer into LIA2, while some had none even during IA1 and was simply "Philistinized" by the adjacent poleis.
    Check out my Hidden Content
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    My mtDNA: K1a1b1a;

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  9. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    I generally wouldn't trust Gedmatch calculators with ancient samples such as these, especially if said calculators are designed with contemporary-variation in mind.

    Using some of these samples to proxy Western Jews would also be interesting given the apparently close proximity of some of the IA1 Philistines to them, but I doubt this should be taken too seriously either.
    Yes, of course. Each calculator contradicts the other. Better wait for G25 coordinates.

    We could also use the Levantine samples to model Western Jews as well.
    From what I see, those would be the closest samples to Judean Jews we have so far.

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  11. #16
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    So they were from the north and generally (and most accurately described as) BA Anatolian like. Great, the implications will be significant.

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  13. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iseid0441 View Post
    Yes, of course. Each calculator contradicts the other. Better wait for G25 coordinates.

    We could also use the Levantine samples to model Western Jews as well.
    From what I see, those would be the closest samples to Judean Jews we have so far.
    Yes - IA2 Philistines should be the closest ones, considering the geographic proximity and their post-BA collapse nature, as well as the dissolution of the previous IA1 Aegean admixture in them.

    Essentially, these samples should provide the best candidate for all Jews (aka Mizrahi Jews also), not just Western Jews, as they predate the Babylonian captivity and as opposed to the Roman-era Lebanese samples, they shouldn't be expected to have post 6th century related genetic contribution that might arrived to the region later (Persians, Greeks, Romans etc.).
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    My mtDNA: K1a1b1a;

    My dad's mtDNA: K2a2a;

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iseid0441 View Post
    Wow that's amazing !!

    K36


    RG2018470 - ASH029 (LBA)

     

    Population
    Amerindian -
    Arabian 18.54 Pct
    Armenian 4.73 Pct
    Basque 2.53 Pct
    Central_African -
    Central_Euro -
    East_African -
    East_Asian -
    East_Balkan -
    East_Central_Asian -
    East_Central_Euro -
    East_Med 24.22 Pct
    Eastern_Euro -
    Fennoscandian -
    French -
    Iberian -
    Indo-Chinese -
    Italian 11.98 Pct
    Malayan -
    Near_Eastern 29.13 Pct
    North_African -
    North_Atlantic 2.24 Pct
    North_Caucasian 2.25 Pct
    North_Sea -
    Northeast_African -
    Oceanian -
    Omotic -
    Pygmy -
    Siberian -
    South_Asian -
    South_Central_Asian -
    South_Chinese -
    Volga-Ural -
    West_African -
    West_Caucasian 1.27 Pct
    West_Med 3.10 Pct


    XA4380944- ASH066 (IA1)


     
    Population
    Amerindian -
    Arabian 22.31 Pct
    Armenian 6.07 Pct
    Basque 1.69 Pct
    Central_African -
    Central_Euro -
    East_African -
    East_Asian -
    East_Balkan -
    East_Central_Asian -
    East_Central_Euro -
    East_Med 24.60 Pct
    Eastern_Euro -
    Fennoscandian -
    French -
    Iberian 3.63 Pct
    Indo-Chinese -
    Italian 5.73 Pct
    Malayan -
    Near_Eastern 18.99 Pct
    North_African 0.92 Pct
    North_Atlantic -
    North_Caucasian -
    North_Sea -
    Northeast_African 3.19 Pct
    Oceanian 0.89 Pct
    Omotic -
    Pygmy -
    Siberian -
    South_Asian 0.42 Pct
    South_Central_Asian 2.07 Pct
    South_Chinese -
    Volga-Ural -
    West_African -
    West_Caucasian 5.59 Pct
    West_Med 3.89 Pct



    QG8173878 - ASH008 (IA2)



    Population
    Amerindian -
    Arabian 20.49 Pct
    Armenian 12.17 Pct
    Basque 0.44 Pct
    Central_African -
    Central_Euro -
    East_African -
    East_Asian -
    East_Balkan -
    East_Central_Asian -
    East_Central_Euro -
    East_Med 36.82 Pct
    Eastern_Euro -
    Fennoscandian -
    French -
    Iberian -
    Indo-Chinese -
    Italian -
    Malayan -
    Near_Eastern 22.80 Pct
    North_African 1.17 Pct
    North_Atlantic -
    North_Caucasian -
    North_Sea -
    Northeast_African -
    Oceanian -
    Omotic -
    Pygmy -
    Siberian -
    South_Asian -
    South_Central_Asian -
    South_Chinese -
    Volga-Ural -
    West_African -
    West_Caucasian 2.90 Pct
    West_Med 3.20 Pct

    They all score higher Arabian than modern day Palestinian Christians, Samaritans and even Bronze Age Lebanon.
    I also noticed some of them score higher SSA than modern Levantines. Possibly small Egyptian input ?

    Many of these mtDNA groups are found among Palestinians Christians.

    This is exciting. I hope G25 coordinates will be available soon. I want to use them to model Palestinian Christians.
    Agamemnon's warning/caution is duly noted! I'm looking forward to the G25, too.

    It's also interesting that not only are they heavy in Arabian, but the last one also has more Armenian than my mother (who I think has one Armenian great-grandparent), but less N. Caucasus and no Italian where Mom has over 7 and also some trace Central Euro (Roman or later influence?).

    Amerindian -
    Arabian 9.90 Pct
    Armenian 9.02 Pct
    Basque 0.74 Pct
    Central_African -
    Central_Euro 0.44 Pct
    East_African -
    East_Asian -
    East_Balkan -
    East_Central_Asian -
    East_Central_Euro -
    East_Med 31.47 Pct
    Eastern_Euro -
    Fennoscandian -
    French -
    Iberian -
    Indo-Chinese -
    Italian 7.31 Pct
    Malayan -
    Near_Eastern 22.48 Pct
    North_African 1.51 Pct
    North_Atlantic -
    North_Caucasian 9.57 Pct
    North_Sea -
    Northeast_African -
    Oceanian -
    Omotic -
    Pygmy -
    Siberian -
    South_Asian -
    South_Central_Asian 0.77 Pct
    South_Chinese -
    Volga-Ural -
    West_African -
    West_Caucasian 2.97 Pct
    West_Med 3.81 Pct
    Last edited by Dewsloth; 07-03-2019 at 08:37 PM.
    R1b>M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833 >S4281>S4268>Z17112 (S17075-)

    Y-cousin: 6DRIF-23 (DF19>>Z17112+, S17075+)

    Ancestors: Francis Cooke (M223/I2a2a) b1583; Hester Mahieu (Cooke) (J1c2 mtDNA) b.1584; Richard Warren (E-M35) b1578; Elizabeth Walker (Warren) (H1j mtDNA) b1583;
    John Mead (I2a1/P37.2) b1634; Rev. Joseph Hull (I1, L1301+ L1302-) b1595; Benjamin Harrington (M223/I2a2a-Y5729) b1618; Joshua Griffith (L21>DF13) b1593;
    John Wing (U106) b1584; Hermann Wilhelm (DF19) b1635

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  17. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    RG2018470 - ASH029 (LBA)

    XA4380944 - ASH066 (IA1)

    BV9295331 - ASH067 (IA1) - faulty raw data for some reason, conversion from BAM to up-loadable format failed.

    WZ7876204 - ASH068 (IA1)

    QG8173878 - ASH008 (IA2)

    5 kits from each period I've uploaded to GEDmatch. Going to continue to upload the other 5.
    They seem low coverage samples, what a pity!

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  19. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Where do you see R1a? I see ASH067, an infant recovered from under the floor of a house in Ashkelon, is R1. Does it say somewhere else in the paper that he is R1a?

    Or is there another one I missed? I only took a quick look.
    ASH 067 Y dna R1 (R1a assuming) Mtdna H92

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