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Thread: Ancient DNA sheds light on the genetic origins of early Iron Age Philistines

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    ASH 067 Y dna R1 (R1a assuming) Mtdna H92
    I wouldn't assume that.
     


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    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36981 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982 >FGC36981)

    Additional Data:
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    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    ASH 067 Y dna R1 (R1a assuming) Mtdna H92
    Why would we assume R1a rather than R1b?

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  5. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dewsloth View Post
    Agamemnon's warning/caution is duly noted! I'm looking forward to the G25, too.

    It's also interesting that not only are they heavy in Arabian, but the last one also has more Armenian than my mother (who I think has one Armenian great-grandparent), but less N. Caucasus and no Italian where Mom has over 7 and also some trace Central Euro (Roman or later influence?).

    Amerindian -
    Arabian 9.90 Pct
    Armenian 9.02 Pct
    Basque 0.74 Pct
    Central_African -
    Central_Euro 0.44 Pct
    East_African -
    East_Asian -
    East_Balkan -
    East_Central_Asian -
    East_Central_Euro -
    East_Med 31.47 Pct
    Eastern_Euro -
    Fennoscandian -
    French -
    Iberian -
    Indo-Chinese -
    Italian 7.31 Pct
    Malayan -
    Near_Eastern 22.48 Pct
    North_African 1.51 Pct
    North_Atlantic -
    North_Caucasian 9.57 Pct
    North_Sea -
    Northeast_African -
    Oceanian -
    Omotic -
    Pygmy -
    Siberian -
    South_Asian -
    South_Central_Asian 0.77 Pct
    South_Chinese -
    Volga-Ural -
    West_African -
    West_Caucasian 2.97 Pct
    West_Med 3.81 Pct

    Both of my parents score 8% Armenian which I thought was weird till now.

    LBA1 scores 12% Italian and IA1 scores about 6% then suddenly (IA2) scores no Italian at all. It's like the previous population was replaced. But like Agamemnon said we shouldn't take gedmatch too seriously.
    Interestingly Palestinians Christians range between 10 to 15% which is even higher than Lebanese.

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  7. #24
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    Per Ted Kandell:

    ASH008 ASH066 J1-Z2331
    ASH067 R1b-M269
    ASH087 L-M20


    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=894106243

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  9. #25
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    So where does this study leave the israeli study from 2015 and the link with easter minoan philistine origin via minoan texts and samples..........there is a paper and also a video on this

    Father's Mtdna .........T2b17
    Grandfather's Mtdna .......T1a1e
    Sons Mtdna .......K1a4o
    Maternal Grandfather paternal......I1d1-P109
    Maternal side Grandfather .......R1b-S8172
    Wife's Ydna .....R1a-Z282

    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, Y70078+ )

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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    I wouldn't assume that.
    R1a could actually make a whole lot of sense quite frankly. After all, Bulgaria_MLBA I2163 which is in my view one of the best samples available to proxy the Mycenaeans' Europe_LNBA ancestry carried Y-DNA haplogroup R1a-Z93, this subclade ties in very well with phylogenetic models which posit a closer relationship between the Hellenic, Armenian and Indo-Iranian branches of the IE languages. R1b-Z2103 could also be a fair alternative, at least one branch of R1b-L21 (Z251) might also fit the bill for that matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Per Ted Kandell:

    ASH008 ASH066 J1-Z2331
    ASH067 R1b-M269
    ASH087 L-M20


    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=894106243
    Would be nice if we could get something more precise than L862 (Z2331) for J1 here. All this tells us is that this individual's paternal ancestors were part of the Proto-Semitic speech community, and nothing more. With more resolution, we could be able to determine which branch of the Semitic language tree we're dealing with here (almost undoubtedly Canaanite but still). The lack of resolution is a recurring issue in these studies.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 07-03-2019 at 10:17 PM.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  13. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    Would be nice if we could get something more precise than L862 (Z2331) for J1 here. All this tells us is that this individuals' paternal ancestors were part of the Proto-Semitic speech community, and nothing more. With more resolution, we could be able to determine which branch of the Semitic language tree we're dealing with here (almost undoubtedly Canaanite but still). The lack of resolution is a recurring issue in these studies.
    Yes, I thought about checking the J sample, but changed my mind when I noticed the coverage is quite low, as it can get time consuming. Thankfully, Ted Kandell checked it Although I'm not sure if he checked for J1-Z2331 downstreams..

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  15. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Yep, history is having it's laugh today - but you and I have been pondering this for quite some time - this is essentially to be expected, given the (now apparently much later acquired) Greco-Roman admixture among Western Jews.

    I would try to use IA2, not IA1, and it seems this Mycenaean-like ancestry was very minimal even among the Philistines themselves, at least in Ashkelon. I wonder what was the situation in other Philistine poleis - Ashdod, Gaza, Ekron and Gath - maybe some of them had this Aegean-like admixture lasting longer into LIA2, while some had none even during IA1 and was simply "Philistinized" by the adjacent poleis.
    Indeed, to be sure nothing here is out of the ordinary. Even the proximity to BA Anatolians was expected, something I've kept repeating for several years now (and which really underlines Cyprus' central role in the LBA collapse).

    That being said, this high amount of proximity is quite intriguing. Put together, the IA1 Philistine cluster will closely mirror the present-day variation of Western Jewry, with the Mycenaean-like sample closely resembling Ashkenazim and Italqim, the BA Anatolian-like samples resembling Romaniote, Sephardic and NA Jews more closely and the ASH_LBA-like sample being somewhat close to Syro-Lebanese Jews. That's not to say that present-day Western Jews owe their Eastern Mediterranean profile to the Philistines, even though I do suspect that they derive at least some ancestry from them (unlike what the authors claim, something that cannot be seen from studying only a single site, which is arguably not the best site to view this demographic change to begin with)... While history does not repeat itself, it does rhyme.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Yes, I thought about checking the J sample, but changed my mind when I noticed the coverage is quite low, as it can get time consuming. Thankfully, Ted Kandell checked it Although I'm not sure if he checked for J1-Z2331 downstreams..
    As you said, the coverage is low for these samples. Looks like he did check the downstream branches, which makes the result underwhelming to say the least... Ah well, we'll have to wait for the upcoming samples from Megiddo, hopefully things will be different this time (fingers crossed for ZS227 [my branch] )!
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 07-04-2019 at 12:08 AM.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  17. #29
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    Doesn't it seem like most of the samples from Ashkelon whether from the LBA or the IA, are slightly shifted towards Europe and especially to the Steppe-rich Europe in comparison with Lebanon_MBA?

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  19. #30
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    I noticed the Egyptian samples in that PCA have a bit of variation (one is up there with Levantines/Arabians, another is close to Natufians).
    Last edited by Adules; 07-03-2019 at 11:00 PM.

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