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Thread: Why do people from APULIA and BASILICATA, S. ITALY plot nearer mainland Greeks?

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    Why do people from APULIA and BASILICATA, S. ITALY plot nearer mainland Greeks?

    I have seen this on GEDmatch as well as the new Cretan study, in which Apulians do not cluster with Cretans/Sicilians, but up near the Peloponnese. Also, 23andme gives them elevated "Greek and Balkan."

    This is an example... he is almost 20% mainland Greek and matching with Peloponnesians.



    Additionally, from nMonte modeling (and I'd like to see this confirmed again since we have new samples), there is an increase in NE European/BaltoSlavic type input and almost NO Levantine, North African, or additional West Asian input. The Sarno et al 2017 study also gave Apulians and people from neighboring Basilicata scarcely any more "Near Eastern" than what they gave to Peloponnesians, and on the PCA plot they are also drifting toward mainland Greeks.

    What we are essentially seeing is a population similar to Maniots and south Peloponnesians that deviates from the East Mediterranean cluster.

    Why is this? I can think of a few historical explanations which, to me, all must work in combination:

    1. Illyrian input from the pre-Greek population.
    2. A greater degree of Greek settlement directly from mainland Greece as opposed to from the Aegean, Anatolia, or Cyprus.
    3. Isolation from additional sources of West Asian ancestry that impacted the rest of the South Aegean sphere.
    4. Recent Greek input in the last 1000 years with the Slavic ancestry embedded.

    What do others think? I don't think their plotting can be seen as just a reduction in Phoenician or whatever else ancestry, to me they require actual, recent Greek input.
    Last edited by Sikeliot; 07-04-2019 at 04:24 PM.

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    Considering what the single Balkans IA sample we have looks like and the Eastern European shift of Apulians in comparison with other South Italians, this is unlikely to be due to Illyrian settlement. Additional Greek settlement from the mainland during the classical era can also be ruled out, variation between the Mycenaeans and the Emporiote Greeks is minimal which basically precludes such a scenario. The most parsimonious explanation considering the relatively late Byzantine presence in Apulia (until the 11th century) is additional ancestry from Mainland Greece at a stage when the various Slavic tribes that made it to Greece had already been absorbed.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 07-05-2019 at 12:52 AM.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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    [QUOTE=Sikeliot;579685]I have seen this on GEDmatch as well as the new Cretan study, in which Apulians do not cluster with Cretans/Sicilians, but up near the Peloponnese. Also, 23andme gives them elevated "Greek and Balkan."

    This is an example... he is almost 20% mainland Greek and matching with Peloponnesians.



    Additionally, from nMonte modeling (and I'd like to see this confirmed again since we have new samples), there is an increase in NE European/BaltoSlavic type input and almost NO Levantine, North African, or additional West Asian input. The Sarno et al 2017 study also gave Apulians and people from neighboring Basilicata scarcely any more "Near Eastern" than what they gave to Peloponnesians, and on the PCA plot they are also drifting toward mainland Greeks.

    What we are essentially seeing is a population similar to Maniots and south Peloponnesians that deviates from the East Mediterranean cluster.

    Why is this? I can think of a few historical explanations which, to me, all must work in combination:

    1. Illyrian input from the pre-Greek population.
    2. A greater degree of Greek settlement directly from mainland Greece as opposed to from the Aegean, Anatolia, or Cyprus.
    3. Isolation from additional sources of West Asian ancestry that impacted the rest of the South Aegean sphere.
    4. Recent Greek input in the last 1000 years with the Slavic ancestry embedded.

    What do others think? I don't think their plotting can be seen as just a reduction in Phoenician or whatever else ancestry, to me they require actual, recent Greek input.


    I'm primarily Messinian/Peloponnesian Greek (with minimal Arcadian) and I get Sicily (not sure which region) and Basillicata as top 2 for my Italian admixture which is 8.2%.
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    Last edited by TonyC; 07-05-2019 at 01:16 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    I have seen this on GEDmatch as well as the new Cretan study, in which Apulians do not cluster with Cretans/Sicilians, but up near the Peloponnese. Also, 23andme gives them elevated "Greek and Balkan."

    This is an example... he is almost 20% mainland Greek and matching with Peloponnesians.



    Additionally, from nMonte modeling (and I'd like to see this confirmed again since we have new samples), there is an increase in NE European/BaltoSlavic type input and almost NO Levantine, North African, or additional West Asian input. The Sarno et al 2017 study also gave Apulians and people from neighboring Basilicata scarcely any more "Near Eastern" than what they gave to Peloponnesians, and on the PCA plot they are also drifting toward mainland Greeks.

    What we are essentially seeing is a population similar to Maniots and south Peloponnesians that deviates from the East Mediterranean cluster.

    Why is this? I can think of a few historical explanations which, to me, all must work in combination:

    1. Illyrian input from the pre-Greek population.
    2. A greater degree of Greek settlement directly from mainland Greece as opposed to from the Aegean, Anatolia, or Cyprus.
    3. Isolation from additional sources of West Asian ancestry that impacted the rest of the South Aegean sphere.
    4. Recent Greek input in the last 1000 years with the Slavic ancestry embedded.

    What do others think? I don't think their plotting can be seen as just a reduction in Phoenician or whatever else ancestry, to me they require actual, recent Greek input.
    beacuse up to 700BC there was no greeks along the adriatic sea........the liburnian illyrians ruled as far south as Corfu, in 700BC corinthians took corfu from the liburnians, then took modern ancona lands and landed in modern rimini
    There are no illyrians, that is a modern name.....the romans called the lands illricum but the people/tribes are all different, Liburnians, Dalmatians, Pannonians, Histrians, Iapedes ( modern croatia which traveled to apulia pre 700 bc ) etc etc

    Corinthians also took eastern sicily


    The term illyrian is the same as the term scandinavian ...........a regional/geographical area
    Last edited by vettor; 07-05-2019 at 01:27 AM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    Considering what the single Balkans IA sample we have looks like and the Eastern European shift of Apulians in comparison with other South Italians, this is unlikely to be due to Illyrian settlement. Additional Greek settlement from the mainland during the classical era can also be ruled out, variation between the Mycenaeans and the Emporiote Greeks is minimal which basically precludes such a scenario. The most parsimonious explanation considering the relatively late Byzantine presence in Apulia (until the 11th century) is additional ancestry from Mainland Greece at a stage when the various Slavic tribes that made it to Greece had already been absorbed.
    So essentially it is due to mainland Greek input and thus, genuine Slavic ancestry in Apulia. This is what I thought. Apulia is very poorly studied. I wonder if they have more Slavic ancestry than some Aegean islands.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    So essentially it is due to mainland Greek input and thus, genuine Slavic ancestry in Apulia. This is what I thought. Apulia is very poorly studied. I wonder if they have more Slavic ancestry than some Aegean islands.
    I do think there is more genuinely Slavic ancestry in Apulia than in some of the South Aegean islands (Kos, Rhodes, Karpathos, Kalymnos, Symi etc), most also seem to be more Slavic shifted than Ashkenazim on average which means that the Slavic admixture is quite substantial, IMO some of the Y-DNA results from Apulia do make this likely. That being said on average I would expect them to have less than in most Aegean islands and as well as less than Maniots and Tsakonians.

    The problem as I see it though is that there is some degree of substructure in Apulia, I've seen individuals from Taranto who are quite similar to Sicilians and Calabrians for instance, so it's not like we're dealing with a monolith (though I do think the substructure between South Italians is often overstated).
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 07-05-2019 at 02:08 AM.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    I do think there is more genuinely Slavic ancestry in Apulia than in some of the South Aegean islands (Kos, Rhodes, Karpathos, Kalymnos, Symi etc), most also seem to be more Slavic shifted than Ashkenazim on average which means that the Slavic admixture is quite substantial, IMO some of the Y-DNA results from Apulia do make this likely. That being said on average I would expect them to have less than in most Aegean islands and as well as less than Maniots and Tsakonians.

    The problem as I see it though is that there is some degree of substructure in Apulia, I've seen individuals from Taranto who are quite similar to Sicilians and Calabrians for instance, so it's not like we're dealing with a monolith (though I do think the substructure between South Italians is often overstated).
    Autosomally Apulians are the only South Italians who plot more with mainland Greeks than average but they are probably closest to Cyclades and North Aegeans who are themselves transitional. Whereas Sicilians and Calabrians are more like Crete.

    The one result I have from Kos on Gedmatch is close to Calabrians.

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    Can you say witch regions of Greece and Italy are close with each other?

    I would like also to know the genetic clushter of Molise and Basillicata and how close these regions coming to modern Greeks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    Can you say witch regions of Greece and Italy are close with each other?

    I would like also to know the genetic clushter of Molise and Basillicata and how close these regions coming to modern Greeks.
    In my observation:

    Apulia/Basilicata with Mani/Tsakonia/Cyclades/North Aegean
    Sicily/Calabria with Crete/Dodecanese
    Campania/Abruzzo/Molise are between Central Italy and the Sicily/Crete cluster

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    In my observation:

    Apulia/Basilicata with Mani/Tsakonia/Cyclades/North Aegean
    Sicily/Calabria with Crete/Dodecanese
    Campania/Abruzzo/Molise are between Central Italy and the Sicily/Crete cluster

    Βtw what differentiates south italians in general with Italians in central regions?The higher Levant/West Asia/Berber in South and the higher Steppe/Northern element in central italy???

    Apulia/Basillicata seems normal south euro.In Sicily/Calabria we got more near east and people from abruzzo and Molise combine both elements right?

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