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Thread: Central italian mountain communities' genetic origins

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crow View Post
    Do you know around how long it will take for the paper to get published? Did some informations already leak?
    Just read all the thread "The Italian peninsula through ancient dna", some people leaked something about their autosomal dna. In principle, the paper should have already come out.
    Last edited by patrizio22; 07-06-2019 at 11:13 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crow View Post
    The interesting part is that the neolithic migrants all are present in double (or nearly double) percentages in comparisions to the rest of Italy, while the indoeuropean (mainly roman, in this case) R1b is half the national percentage. This means that the romans just put those communities under roman political control, without ever really migrating in great quantities to those places
    Or it means that the national average is far from accurate, which wouldn't be surprising for most countries on Eupedia.
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    Several folks on this site have insight into two ancient DNA studies from central Italy. They have reported that most ancient DNA resemble modern northern Italians and Bronze Age Iberians. So, it is very likely that the area had much higher levels of R-L51 up until the time of the Roman Republic.

    Also, based on the ancient DNA from northern Italy, Sardinia and Sicily that has already been published or in pre-print, the Neolithic farmers belonged almost, if not entirely, to haplogroups G2a, I2a and R-V88. So, many of the other haplogroups you classified as “Neolithic” might have been introduced during the Greek or Imperial Roman periods.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crow View Post
    Since my I descend from one of those communities (Trevi nel Lazio) from father's side, I decided to analyze the yDna of the village, and the yDna of the surrounding villages, to later compare the results to the average italian results. The sample is composed of 170 people.

     
    Filettino
    G2a - 2
    I1 - 4
    I2 - 2
    J2 - 1
    R1b - 6
    T - 2

    Jenne
    E1b1b - 19
    G2a - 22
    J1 - 2
    J2 - 12
    Q - 6
    R1b - 1
    R - 3

    Piglio
    E1b1 - 10
    G2a - 5
    I1 - 3
    I2 - 1
    J1 - 3
    J2 - 8
    R1b - 17

    Trevi nel Lazio
    E1b1b - 3
    G2a - 2
    I1 - 2
    I2 - 1
    J1 - 1
    J2 - 7
    R1a - 3
    R1b - 4

    Vallepietra
    E1b1 - 3
    I1 - 5
    J2 - 2
    R1b - 6
    T - 2


    Haplogroup - Number of people - Percentage of people - (National percentage)

    E1b1b - 35 - 20,58% - (13,50%)
    G2a - 31 - 18,23% - ( 9,00%)
    I1 - 14 - 8,23% - ( 4,50%)
    I2 - 4 - 2,35% - ( 5,50%)
    J1 - 6 - 3,52% - ( 3,00%)
    J2 - 30 - 17,64% - (15,50%)
    R1a - 3 - 1,76% - ( 4,00%)
    R1b - 34 - 20,00% - (39,00%)
    T - 7 - 4,11% - ( 2,50%)
    Q - 6 - 3,52% - ( 0,00%)

    The interesting part is that the neolithic migrants all are present in double (or nearly double) percentages in comparisions to the rest of Italy, while the indoeuropean (mainly roman, in this case) R1b is half the national percentage. This means that the romans just put those communities under roman political control, without ever really migrating in great quantities to those places (which was already the most likely possibility, but I still expected some more migrations from R1b during those millennia). J2 is still quite present, but I relate (probably wrongly) this haplogroup more to merchant communities, in comparision to the belligerent and power driven romans.
    It makes a lot of sense for farmers and herders to prosper so well in such territories, since farming and herding was still the main activity of the population since not so long ago. And it's also important to note that neolithic farmers present in more plain territories probably had the find more isolated and secure place with the indoeuropean arrival.

    The fact that ALL the neolithic farmers are present in great numbers doesn't only mean that the R1b didn't have much interest in those territories. It also means that neolithic migrants were able to form STRONG AND COMPACT farming and herding based communities, who let no space for the older native I2 groups.

    That's kind of the reason why in Sardinia I2 is so strongly present, while both neolithic and bronze age migrants ain't: the place was difficult too reach and the oldest community was too solid.


    The other interesting part of this analysis is the high I1 percentages, which are even higher if we consider the central italian percentages in place than the national ones. 8,23% vs 1,5% is quite a big difference. The germanic invasions ain't considered as a main factor for modern italian genetic composition, but it's quite likely that those peoples had a bigger impact at least on some territories. And in some cases they probably had to retreat in more isolated communities.


    P.S. I'm not an expert. I'm new to haplogroups, so I accept criticism in order to learn how things really are, but don't insult.
    Did you not write 8.23pc v 4.50pc for I1 in the initial listing above (still a big difference!)
    Last edited by Cascio; 07-06-2019 at 03:19 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crow View Post
    Since my I descend from one of those communities (Trevi nel Lazio) from father's side, I decided to analyze the yDna of the village, and the yDna of the surrounding villages, to later compare the results to the average italian results. The sample is composed of 170 people.

     
    Filettino
    G2a - 2
    I1 - 4
    I2 - 2
    J2 - 1
    R1b - 6
    T - 2

    Jenne
    E1b1b - 19
    G2a - 22
    J1 - 2
    J2 - 12
    Q - 6
    R1b - 1
    R - 3

    Piglio
    E1b1 - 10
    G2a - 5
    I1 - 3
    I2 - 1
    J1 - 3
    J2 - 8
    R1b - 17

    Trevi nel Lazio
    E1b1b - 3
    G2a - 2
    I1 - 2
    I2 - 1
    J1 - 1
    J2 - 7
    R1a - 3
    R1b - 4

    Vallepietra
    E1b1 - 3
    I1 - 5
    J2 - 2
    R1b - 6
    T - 2


    Haplogroup - Number of people - Percentage of people - (National percentage)

    E1b1b - 35 - 20,58% - (13,50%)
    G2a - 31 - 18,23% - ( 9,00%)
    I1 - 14 - 8,23% - ( 4,50%)
    I2 - 4 - 2,35% - ( 5,50%)
    J1 - 6 - 3,52% - ( 3,00%)
    J2 - 30 - 17,64% - (15,50%)
    R1a - 3 - 1,76% - ( 4,00%)
    R1b - 34 - 20,00% - (39,00%)
    T - 7 - 4,11% - ( 2,50%)
    Q - 6 - 3,52% - ( 0,00%)

    The interesting part is that the neolithic migrants all are present in double (or nearly double) percentages in comparisions to the rest of Italy, while the indoeuropean (mainly roman, in this case) R1b is half the national percentage. This means that the romans just put those communities under roman political control, without ever really migrating in great quantities to those places (which was already the most likely possibility, but I still expected some more migrations from R1b during those millennia). J2 is still quite present, but I relate (probably wrongly) this haplogroup more to merchant communities, in comparision to the belligerent and power driven romans.
    It makes a lot of sense for farmers and herders to prosper so well in such territories, since farming and herding was still the main activity of the population since not so long ago. And it's also important to note that neolithic farmers present in more plain territories probably had the find more isolated and secure place with the indoeuropean arrival.

    The fact that ALL the neolithic farmers are present in great numbers doesn't only mean that the R1b didn't have much interest in those territories. It also means that neolithic migrants were able to form STRONG AND COMPACT farming and herding based communities, who let no space for the older native I2 groups.

    That's kind of the reason why in Sardinia I2 is so strongly present, while both neolithic and bronze age migrants ain't: the place was difficult too reach and the oldest community was too solid.


    The other interesting part of this analysis is the high I1 percentages, which are even higher if we consider the central italian percentages in place than the national ones. 8,23% vs 1,5% is quite a big difference. The germanic invasions ain't considered as a main factor for modern italian genetic composition, but it's quite likely that those peoples had a bigger impact at least on some territories. And in some cases they probably had to retreat in more isolated communities.


    P.S. I'm not an expert. I'm new to haplogroups, so I accept criticism in order to learn how things really are, but don't insult.
    The area of Trevi (in Latium) was apparently where the tribe of the Aequi lived. There's not much information about the Aequi and their language. The nearby Marsi were osco-umbrian or sabellic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    Several folks on this site have insight into two ancient DNA studies from central Italy. They have reported that most ancient DNA resemble modern northern Italians and Bronze Age Iberians. So, it is very likely that the area had much higher levels of R-L51 up until the time of the Roman Republic.

    Also, based on the ancient DNA from northern Italy, Sardinia and Sicily that has already been published or in pre-print, the Neolithic farmers belonged almost, if not entirely, to haplogroups G2a, I2a and R-V88. So, many of the other haplogroups you classified as “Neolithic” might have been introduced during the Greek or Imperial Roman periods.
    Good point. My post was very unrefined and not backed up by enough knowledge. So I thank your input.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cascio View Post
    Did you not write 8.23pc v 4.50pc for I1 in the initial listing above (still a big difference!)
    Yes, but 1,5% is the average of central Italy, while 4,5% is the national average of Italy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crow View Post
    Since my I descend from one of those communities (Trevi nel Lazio) from father's side, I decided to analyze the yDna of the village, and the yDna of the surrounding villages, to later compare the results to the average italian results. The sample is composed of 170 people.

     
    Filettino
    G2a - 2
    I1 - 4
    I2 - 2
    J2 - 1
    R1b - 6
    T - 2

    Jenne
    E1b1b - 19
    G2a - 22
    J1 - 2
    J2 - 12
    Q - 6
    R1b - 1
    R - 3

    Piglio
    E1b1 - 10
    G2a - 5
    I1 - 3
    I2 - 1
    J1 - 3
    J2 - 8
    R1b - 17

    Trevi nel Lazio
    E1b1b - 3
    G2a - 2
    I1 - 2
    I2 - 1
    J1 - 1
    J2 - 7
    R1a - 3
    R1b - 4

    Vallepietra
    E1b1 - 3
    I1 - 5
    J2 - 2
    R1b - 6
    T - 2


    Haplogroup - Number of people - Percentage of people - (National percentage)

    E1b1b - 35 - 20,58% - (13,50%)
    G2a - 31 - 18,23% - ( 9,00%)
    I1 - 14 - 8,23% - ( 4,50%)
    I2 - 4 - 2,35% - ( 5,50%)
    J1 - 6 - 3,52% - ( 3,00%)
    J2 - 30 - 17,64% - (15,50%)
    R1a - 3 - 1,76% - ( 4,00%)
    R1b - 34 - 20,00% - (39,00%)
    T - 7 - 4,11% - ( 2,50%)
    Q - 6 - 3,52% - ( 0,00%)

    The interesting part is that the neolithic migrants all are present in double (or nearly double) percentages in comparisions to the rest of Italy, while the indoeuropean (mainly roman, in this case) R1b is half the national percentage. This means that the romans just put those communities under roman political control, without ever really migrating in great quantities to those places (which was already the most likely possibility, but I still expected some more migrations from R1b during those millennia). J2 is still quite present, but I relate (probably wrongly) this haplogroup more to merchant communities, in comparision to the belligerent and power driven romans.
    It makes a lot of sense for farmers and herders to prosper so well in such territories, since farming and herding was still the main activity of the population since not so long ago. And it's also important to note that neolithic farmers present in more plain territories probably had the find more isolated and secure place with the indoeuropean arrival.

    The fact that ALL the neolithic farmers are present in great numbers doesn't only mean that the R1b didn't have much interest in those territories. It also means that neolithic migrants were able to form STRONG AND COMPACT farming and herding based communities, who let no space for the older native I2 groups.

    That's kind of the reason why in Sardinia I2 is so strongly present, while both neolithic and bronze age migrants ain't: the place was difficult too reach and the oldest community was too solid.


    The other interesting part of this analysis is the high I1 percentages, which are even higher if we consider the central italian percentages in place than the national ones. 8,23% vs 1,5% is quite a big difference. The germanic invasions ain't considered as a main factor for modern italian genetic composition, but it's quite likely that those peoples had a bigger impact at least on some territories. And in some cases they probably had to retreat in more isolated communities.


    P.S. I'm not an expert. I'm new to haplogroups, so I accept criticism in order to learn how things really are, but don't insult.
    Truly the Italians are very interesting people. For me the surprising thing is that R1b only has a percentage of 20%, because at least I imagine the Etruscans and Latins (Republic) being mostly R1b. Haplogroups I2a and even I1 have a paleolithic-mesolithic origin in the Iberian peninsula (I imagine it will be the same in the Italian peninsula). So the only haplogroup related to neolithic migrations of those you mentioned could be G2a. I suppose that both J2 and J1, T and even E1b will have to do with Greek colonists (Iron Age)
    although I do not know if Magna Grecia got so far north. Otherwise, I suppose there will be lineages related to migrations during the Imperial era-Do you know what subclades of R1b have been found?

    We did a similar study this year in a province of Castile and we have not found J1, T, I1, Q or R1a, so Spain is definitely much more boring than Italy (genetically speaking)

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    Unfortunately I don't know the subclades.


    I made a couple of mistakes in the first post:
    1) I considered E1b one brought by neolithic migrants and not by greeks;
    2) I mostly considered R1b to be roman, while those territories were of the Aequi tribes, who were osco-umbrians who were likely of R1b haplogroup. Quite a big mistake.

    But I'm glad I posted this here. At least I'm learning from mistakes instead of spectulating with wrong premises.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilerno View Post
    Truly the Italians are very interesting people. For me the surprising thing is that R1b only has a percentage of 20%, because at least I imagine the Etruscans and Latins (Republic) being mostly R1b. Haplogroups I2a and even I1 have a paleolithic-mesolithic origin in the Iberian peninsula (I imagine it will be the same in the Italian peninsula). So the only haplogroup related to neolithic migrations of those you mentioned could be G2a. I suppose that both J2 and J1, T and even E1b will have to do with Greek colonists (Iron Age)
    although I do not know if Magna Grecia got so far north. Otherwise, I suppose there will be lineages related to migrations during the Imperial era-Do you know what subclades of R1b have been found?

    We did a similar study this year in a province of Castile and we have not found J1, T, I1, Q or R1a, so Spain is definitely much more boring than Italy (genetically speaking)
    The Italians are a very interesting people but I believe that Latins and Etruscans in western Italy had more R1b (if modern distributions are at all valid) than the Osco-Umbrian mountain tribes like the Aequi and Marsi and possibly the Sabines too,.
    Certainly the modern province of L'Aquila, land of ancient Marsi, Vestini and part of the Sabines too, has very low R1b (about 10pc!)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crow View Post
    Thank you. I mistyped. The second one was J1. I edited with the corrected haplogroup.


    I also just found out Lombards destroyed and plundered Trevi nel Lazio in the VII century, and the saracens did the same in the IX. I think this justifies the numbers of I1 and J1, since I didn't find other invasions and plunderings.
    I highly doubt that J1 in a Central Italian context is Saracen. It for sure is there for very much longer.

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