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Thread: Central italian mountain communities' genetic origins

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilerno View Post
    Haplogroups I2a and even I1 have a paleolithic-mesolithic origin in the Iberian peninsula (I imagine it will be the same in the Italian peninsula). So the only haplogroup related to neolithic migrations of those you mentioned could be G2a.
    No.

    First of all I2a might be of Italian mesolithic origin as well as neolithic migrant from Iberian peninsula or any other European region.
    I1 has TMRCA about 4600 ybp, this means about 2600 BCE. There is almost no chance current Italian I1 is from mesolithic Italy. Even if I1, or pre-I1 was present in mesolithic Italy, there is almost no chance that current Italian I1 could be their direct male-line ancestors.

    E1b1b also could be related to neolithic migrations. I guess most current Italian E1b1b are not their direct male-line descandants, but anyway.

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cascio View Post
    The Italians are a very interesting people but I believe that Latins and Etruscans in western Italy had more R1b (if modern distributions are at all valid) than the Osco-Umbrian mountain tribes like the Aequi and Marsi and possibly the Sabines too,.
    Certainly the modern province of L'Aquila, land of ancient Marsi, Vestini and part of the Sabines too, has very low R1b (about 10pc!)
    I think the most interesting thing will be to try to understand the linguistic consequences (if there are any) of those percentages that you are mentioning. Because if it is true (as many people say) that the Etruscans plots very close to BA Iberians, that means that they had to have high percentages of R1b. For us, it would be interesting to know if there are Df27 in Italy, but I think the percentages have to be very small

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  5. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cascio View Post
    The Italians are a very interesting people but I believe that Latins and Etruscans in western Italy had more R1b (if modern distributions are at all valid) than the Osco-Umbrian mountain tribes like the Aequi and Marsi and possibly the Sabines too,.
    Certainly the modern province of L'Aquila, land of ancient Marsi, Vestini and part of the Sabines too, has very low R1b (about 10pc!)
    In the thread about the upcoming Italian paper we gleaned a piece of information about the Samnites being autosomally northern Italian-like or Iberian-like. But who knows?
    Last edited by patrizio22; 07-06-2019 at 06:44 PM. Reason: clarity

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  7. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crow View Post
    Unfortunately I don't know the subclades.


    I made a couple of mistakes in the first post:
    1) I considered E1b one brought by neolithic migrants and not by greeks;
    2) I mostly considered R1b to be roman, while those territories were of the Aequi tribes, who were osco-umbrians who were likely of R1b haplogroup. Quite a big mistake.

    But I'm glad I posted this here. At least I'm learning from mistakes instead of spectulating with wrong premises.
    I do not think you're very wrong, because in Iberia there is also a case of E1b in a deposit of Cardial culture, and that culture came to Spain following the Mediterranean coast from Italy, then there may also be E1b in the Italian Neolithic, everything will depend on the subclades.(If I remember correctly, that sample of Spain was E-V13, although it is also true that E1b does not appear again in Iberia until the Roman colonies). The normal thing would be that the authentic Latins (Romans etc..) were R1b because they spoke an Indo-European language, otherwise it would be a real surprise (similar to what happened in Iberia)

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  9. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by artemv View Post
    No.

    First of all I2a might be of Italian mesolithic origin as well as neolithic migrant from Iberian peninsula or any other European region.
    I1 has TMRCA about 4600 ybp, this means about 2600 BCE. There is almost no chance current Italian I1 is from mesolithic Italy. Even if I1, or pre-I1 was present in mesolithic Italy, there is almost no chance that current Italian I1 could be their direct male-line ancestors.

    E1b1b also could be related to neolithic migrations. I guess most current Italian E1b1b are not their direct male-line descandants, but anyway.
    Well, in Iberia we have I1 in Balma de Guilanyá (11,020 BC), I2a in la Carigüela 7,200 BC, I2a1b in Els Trocs (5.188 BC) and Chaves (5.132 BC) which we think have a paleolithic origin, although it is true that I do not know if the SNPs of these samples have been analyzed exhaustively. I suppose that in Italy these haplogroups will be found sooner or later when they begin to analyze carefully Mesolithic and Neolithic sites

  10. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shamash View Post
    I highly doubt that J1 in a Central Italian context is Saracen. It for sure is there for very much longer.
    Of course. The moors and saracens did not left any genetic trace in the penisula.
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    1. 63.1% Swedish+36.9% Spanish_Andalucia @ 2.93

  11. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crow View Post
    Since my I descend from one of those communities (Trevi nel Lazio) from father's side, I decided to analyze the yDna of the village, and the yDna of the surrounding villages, to later compare the results to the average italian results. The sample is composed of 170 people.

     
    Filettino
    G2a - 2
    I1 - 4
    I2 - 2
    J2 - 1
    R1b - 6
    T - 2

    Jenne
    E1b1b - 19
    G2a - 22
    J1 - 2
    J2 - 12
    Q - 6
    R1b - 1
    R - 3

    Piglio
    E1b1 - 10
    G2a - 5
    I1 - 3
    I2 - 1
    J1 - 3
    J2 - 8
    R1b - 17

    Trevi nel Lazio
    E1b1b - 3
    G2a - 2
    I1 - 2
    I2 - 1
    J1 - 1
    J2 - 7
    R1a - 3
    R1b - 4

    Vallepietra
    E1b1 - 3
    I1 - 5
    J2 - 2
    R1b - 6
    T - 2


    Haplogroup - Number of people - Percentage of people - (National percentage)

    E1b1b - 35 - 20,58% - (13,50%)
    G2a - 31 - 18,23% - ( 9,00%)
    I1 - 14 - 8,23% - ( 4,50%)
    I2 - 4 - 2,35% - ( 5,50%)
    J1 - 6 - 3,52% - ( 3,00%)
    J2 - 30 - 17,64% - (15,50%)
    R1a - 3 - 1,76% - ( 4,00%)
    R1b - 34 - 20,00% - (39,00%)
    T - 7 - 4,11% - ( 2,50%)
    Q - 6 - 3,52% - ( 0,00%)

    The interesting part is that the neolithic migrants all are present in double (or nearly double) percentages in comparisions to the rest of Italy, while the indoeuropean (mainly roman, in this case) R1b is half the national percentage. This means that the romans just put those communities under roman political control, without ever really migrating in great quantities to those places (which was already the most likely possibility, but I still expected some more migrations from R1b during those millennia). J2 is still quite present, but I relate (probably wrongly) this haplogroup more to merchant communities, in comparision to the belligerent and power driven romans.
    It makes a lot of sense for farmers and herders to prosper so well in such territories, since farming and herding was still the main activity of the population since not so long ago. And it's also important to note that neolithic farmers present in more plain territories probably had the find more isolated and secure place with the indoeuropean arrival.

    The fact that ALL the neolithic farmers are present in great numbers doesn't only mean that the R1b didn't have much interest in those territories. It also means that neolithic migrants were able to form STRONG AND COMPACT farming and herding based communities, who let no space for the older native I2 groups.

    That's kind of the reason why in Sardinia I2 is so strongly present, while both neolithic and bronze age migrants ain't: the place was difficult too reach and the oldest community was too solid.


    The other interesting part of this analysis is the high I1 percentages, which are even higher if we consider the central italian percentages in place than the national ones. 8,23% vs 1,5% is quite a big difference. The germanic invasions ain't considered as a main factor for modern italian genetic composition, but it's quite likely that those peoples had a bigger impact at least on some territories. And in some cases they probably had to retreat in more isolated communities.


    P.S. I'm not an expert. I'm new to haplogroups, so I accept criticism in order to learn how things really are, but don't insult.

    was this paper below used in the above data?

    Traces of forgotten historical events in mountain communities in Central Italy: A genetic insight
    Francesco Messina, Andrea Finocchio, Mario Federico Rolfo, Flavio De Angelis

    First published: 27 February 2015


    Conclusions

    The samples highlight an overall European genetic pattern both for mtDNA and Y chromosome. Notwithstanding this scenario, Y chromosome haplogroup Q, a common paternal lineage in Central/Western Asia but almost Europe‐wide absent, was found, suggesting that Central Italy could have hosted a settlement from Anatolia that might be supported by cultural, topographic and genetic evidence. Am. J. Hum. Biol. 27:508–519, 2015. © 2015 Wiley Periodicals, Inc.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25728801




    They suggest the sabines, samnites, sabellics are all off-shoots of the Umbri people .......................who came from now modern east-Austria circa mid-bronze age

    Father's Mtdna .........T2b17
    Grandfather's Mtdna .......T1a1e
    Sons Mtdna .......K1a4o
    Maternal Grandfather paternal......I1d1-P109
    Maternal side Grandfather .......R1b-S8172
    Wife's Ydna .....R1a-Z282

    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, Y70078+ )

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  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilerno View Post
    I do not think you're very wrong, because in Iberia there is also a case of E1b in a deposit of Cardial culture, and that culture came to Spain following the Mediterranean coast from Italy, then there may also be E1b in the Italian Neolithic, everything will depend on the subclades.(If I remember correctly, that sample of Spain was E-V13, although it is also true that E1b does not appear again in Iberia until the Roman colonies). The normal thing would be that the authentic Latins (Romans etc..) were R1b because they spoke an Indo-European language, otherwise it would be a real surprise (similar to what happened in Iberia)
    Does eastern Italy owe more to the Balkan Bronze Age peoples and western Italy more to Bell Beaker people, both sets mixed with Neolithic/Chalcolithic predecessors?

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cascio View Post
    Does eastern Italy owe more to the Balkan Bronze Age peoples and western Italy more to Bell Beaker people, both sets mixed with Neolithic/Chalcolithic predecessors?

    I believe that Italy is fundamental to understanding European genetics, which is normal due to its geography and its history. The Italian peninsula is since prehistoric times a kind of magnet that attracted the whole world- First Anatolians, then Central Europeans, Iberians, Balkans, Greeks, Levantines, Africans etc.

    We are all waiting for the results that have been announced to be published. What intrigues me the most is the genetics of the Etruscans, their relationship with Rome and the causes of their decline. I would bet that they are direct descendants of the BBs because I have never thought that they could have Greek, Balkan or Anatolian origin (obviously I can be wrong)

    And as a Spaniard, and due to the obvious historical ties, I hope to know everything about Sicily, Naples, Sardinia and Lombardy.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crow View Post
    Unfortunately I don't know the subclades.


    I made a couple of mistakes in the first post:
    1) I considered E1b one brought by neolithic migrants and not by greeks;
    2) I mostly considered R1b to be roman, while those territories were of the Aequi tribes, who were osco-umbrians who were likely of R1b haplogroup. Quite a big mistake.

    But I'm glad I posted this here. At least I'm learning from mistakes instead of spectulating with wrong premises.
    Well we don't know, let's wait for the paper. R1b appears to be a late Bronze/ early Iron age phenomenon in most of southern Europe. The citizens of Rome during the Imperial period tend to be shifted to the south compared to the earlier period. It doesn't really tell us much about the origins, but it appears there was a migration from the north to the south in the Iron age, followed by oriental migration which created additional southern and eastern pull to the inhabitants of the city.
    Last edited by ADW_1981; 07-06-2019 at 09:43 PM.
    YDNA: R1b-Z220 (A7066+) (1800's Stepney, London(Bethnal Green), UK George Wood b. 1782
    maternal-grandfather YDNA: prob. I1 Gurr, George 1843, Feversham, Kent, England.
    maternal-grandmother YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggrandfather YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton mdka Ireland(?) < 1800s

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