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Thread: Origins of I2a1b

  1. #1
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    Origins of I2a1b

    Hello there!

    I am quite new to the genetics. As an I2a1b (I-S17250, according to LivingDNA) I am searching for infos of my Y-haplogroup. I've found an old article:
    http://originsdna.blogspot.com/2012/...-graffiti.html

    What are your toughts on I2a1b? I've met lots of interesting ideas (Thracians, Dacians, Illyrians, Vandals, White Croats, and now Alans and Vandals, etc.), but I haven't got enough informations. What is you bet, where do we came from?

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    Oh, yes, and before I forget: I know about Cucuteni - Tyrpillia Culture, I'm interested what happened next with the haplogroup.

  4. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Szigmund View Post
    Hello there!

    I am quite new to the genetics. As an I2a1b (I-S17250, according to LivingDNA) I am searching for infos of my Y-haplogroup. I've found an old article:
    http://originsdna.blogspot.com/2012/...-graffiti.html

    What are your toughts on I2a1b? I've met lots of interesting ideas (Thracians, Dacians, Illyrians, Vandals, White Croats, and now Alans and Vandals, etc.), but I haven't got enough informations. What is you bet, where do we came from?
    The overwhelming majority of modern I2a1b belongs under CTS10228. More specifically, almost all of it falls under I-Y3120 which has a TMRCA of 2200ypb. With the exception of I-Y18331(which currently only has Greeks/East European Jews), the entirety of I2a1b belongs to far younger clades. The majority of all I2a1b seems to be linked to the Slavic migrations.

    It is not yet known when I2a1b was absorbed into Slavs, however, it appears that the surviving descendant of I2a1lb had a demographic boom/expansion with the Proto-Slavic tribes in the early to late middle ages.

    S17250 seems to have a common ancestor tracing back to 200AD. Majority of I2a1b are found amongst, Southern Slavs. Yet, decent percentages are found in all Slavs. The only I2a1b relate to modern clusters seems to be that of a Medieval Pole.

    There was a study that found some I2a1b in elite Maqyar. However they were only positive for L621 which is ancestral to CTS10228. Until its confirmed some Magyar belong further downstream, then its likely connected to pre-Slavs, or early assimilated Proto-Slav in their case.

    It is possible some descendants slipped out earlier than migration and were absorbed into other tribes. I think most likely would be Avars, Huns, Bulgars. This is assuming some joined their ranks and were assimilated prior.

    As it currently stands most of the Maqyjar/Avars were Z93, N, with some Z280 and basal L621 for I2a1b.

    Each clade functions as a founder. Personally I think Northern Dacians could have carried some modern I2a1lb/M458/Z280. However, regardless if that is proven; the survivor of these lines seems to participate and expand with the Slavic migrations, and possibly minimally(some clades) with Eastern Goths.
    Last edited by Dibran; 07-09-2019 at 06:38 PM.
    Known Ancestry: Albanian
    23andme results: 94% Balkan, 0.9% Italian, 0.8% Middle Eastern, 2.2% broadly southern European, 0.3 British & Irish, 0.3% Japanese, 0.5% unassigned
    MyOrigins2.0: 100% Southeast European
    MyAncientOrigins: 62% Farmer, 24% Hunter Gatherer, 14% Metal Age Invader
    MyHeritage: 76% Greek, 16% Balkan, 8% Italian
    WeGene: 99.5% Balkan, 0.5% unassigned
    GenePlaza: 92.7% East Mediterranean, 5.2% Southwestern European, 1.5% Ambiguous
    DNA.LAND: 95% Balkan, 5% Sardinian

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    Hi!
    You are wellcome!
    Nice to see another one S17250 guy here!

    Dibran wrote you many things, and almost everything he wrote is correct.
    But first of all I will send you a link to yfull, all of us here who are interested in Y-DNA use this site.
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/I2/
    You can find there all the branches for I2 happlogroup, and check the sub-branches(like CTS10228, Y18331 e.t.c.) Dibran mentioned.

    Our understanding of Y-chromosomes has greatly improved in the recent years, so an article from 2012 is already outdated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Szigmund View Post
    Oh, yes, and before I forget: I know about Cucuteni - Tyrpillia Culture, I'm interested what happened next with the haplogroup.
    This is one of the old theories. Now we have ancient DNA for Cucuteni - Trypillia culture, they were of another happlogroup, G2.
    Cucuteni - Trypillia are not connected to the I2 history.

    I2a1b is a happlogroup that emerged during Ice Age, about 18 000 ybp(years before present), probably somewhere on Appenines. Last common direct male line ancestor of I2a1b lived about 14000 ybp. After Ice Age ended I2a1b became one of major happlogroups among West European Hunter-Gathers (WHG).
    When first agriculturalist came to Europe I2a1b were incorporated into their society.
    Ancient I2a1b are found in Neolithic Iberia, British Isles, Scandinavia, territories that now make Germany and France.

    After Indo-Europeans settled in Europe, I2a1b became a minor happlogroup in Western Europe - majority of people were R1b.
    I2a1b probably was not even present at a time in East Europe, or was a tiny small group of people here.
    After that somehow I2a1b got from West to East Europe, and this happened in the first millenium BCE, it is hard to say when, because it could be a very small group of people.

    I2a1b than very rapidly expanded with all the Slav migrations and became one of the most common happlogroups in East Europe - Dibran wrote you about this. The fact you are S17250 is a very clear sign of your Slavic origin by direct male line.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Majority of I2a1b are found amongst, Southern Slavs.
    That is not quite true.
    I2a1b is indeed very common among Southern Slavs, there are more than 50% of I2a1b in Bosnia-Hertzegovina, and about 30-40% in other former Yougoslavia countries, quite common in Bulgaria also, do not remember the estimation %. But if we count absolute numbers, there are more I2a1b people among East Slavs, than Southern Slavs. About 10% of Russians and Belorussians, combined with about 15% Ukraininans will be much more than total numbers of I2 men among Southern Slavs.

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    Good posts by Dibran and Artemv. I would only say re " About 10% of Russians and Belorussians, combined with about 15% Ukrainians will be much more than total numbers of I2 men among Southern Slavs. " that I am not quite sure about the Belorussian/Russian relative and/or absolute percentages, but in the case of Ukrainians the figure is slightly higher than 15% (somewhere between 20 and 25% actually). And I think the numbers of I2a-Dins among Moldavians and Rumanians is also fairly substantial (probably representing mostly the descendants of invading Slavs eventually assimilated).

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    Quote Originally Posted by artemv View Post
    After that somehow I2a1b got from West to East Europe, and this happened in the first millenium BCE, it is hard to say when, because it could be a very small group of people.
    I generally agree with your post but I don't think the movement was west-east, but the subset that rapidly expanded was always in the east. There is plenty of territory that is not sampled in aDNA record of Belarus or eastern Poland that may have harboured the Dinaric group of I2a1b.

    A west to east movement might be demonstrated with P312+ subclades, but these branches are typically absent in modern territory where I2a1b-Dinaric peaks today. Rather R1a-M458, M558 seem to be associated to I2a1b-Dinaric branches.
    YDNA: R1b-Z220 (A7066+) (1800's Stepney, London(Bethnal Green), UK George Wood b. 1782
    maternal-grandfather YDNA: prob. I1 Gurr, George 1843, Feversham, Kent, England.
    maternal-grandmother YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggrandfather YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton mdka Ireland(?) < 1800s

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    There was a study that found some I2a1b in elite Maqyar. However they were only positive for L621 which is ancestral to CTS10228. Until its confirmed some Magyar belong further downstream, then its likely connected to pre-Slavs, or early assimilated Proto-Slav in their case.
    The leader with the richest grave was I2a1b. And in that study he was tested negative for S17250. The 2 other I2a1b were also in rich graves with full Magyar custom of horse heads and sabers - exactly as the Bulgars (not avars). Here is a good description, you can translate it: https://sites.google.com/site/hagyom...-temeto-52-sir

    Here is a reconstruction of his skull: 59418616_575772086242201_6320331344303882240_n.jpg

    I want the I2a1b is slavic meme to die, but its gonna be so hard, because the definition of what Slavic is changes every time: Is it a language, is it culture, is it customs, is people, is it DNA.

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    http://discovery.ucl.ac.uk/18975/1/18975.pdf

    Hg I2a1a2b-L621 was present in 5 Conqueror samples, and a 6th sample form Magyarhomorog (MH/9) most likely also belongs here, as MH/9 is a likely kin of MH/16. This Hg of European origin is most prominent in the Balkans and Eastern Europe, especially among Slavic speaking groups
    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...97997.full.pdf
    Last edited by Waldemar; 07-11-2019 at 07:55 AM.

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    A very interesting blog is http://blog.vayda.pl/en/i2a-dinaric-subclade-y3120-2/

    The richest country containing all clusters is Romania (I2a1b = 28%), 28% is great if we think Romania was an alley of the invasions at all periods .
    Romania with the contiguous South-West Ukrainia seems the origin of the dinaric clusters

    Bosnia-Herzegovia is the peak of frequency, but a lot less rich of different clusters.
    Last edited by palamede; 07-11-2019 at 09:40 AM.

  16. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    I generally agree with your post but I don't think the movement was west-east, but the subset that rapidly expanded was always in the east. There is plenty of territory that is not sampled in aDNA record of Belarus or eastern Poland that may have harboured the Dinaric group of I2a1b.

    A west to east movement might be demonstrated with P312+ subclades, but these branches are typically absent in modern territory where I2a1b-Dinaric peaks today. Rather R1a-M458, M558 seem to be associated to I2a1b-Dinaric branches.
    All major branches of I2a1b are found in the West Europe, the only exception is Y3120. So it is very likely that Y3120 moved from West to East. It can happen that we just didn't find ancient I2a1b in the East Europe, and people carring I2a1b later moved from East to West, but this is highly unlikely.

    P312+ subclades migrated West to East in the third millenia BCE, one or one and a half millenia before Y3120 migrated to the East.

    Quote Originally Posted by Plashiputak View Post
    I want the I2a1b is slavic meme to die, but its gonna be so hard, because the definition of what Slavic is changes every time: Is it a language, is it culture, is it customs, is people, is it DNA.
    We should not forget that I2a1b is 12 000 years older than Slavs. So, no doubts, all the branches of I2a1b, other than Y3120 are not Slavic.

    It is always difficult to make associations between cultural/linguistic groups and Y-chromosome branches. People change their cultural/language groups, and almost all cultural/language groups include several Y-chromosome happlgroups. But Y3120 is the best candidate to be considered Slavic happlogroup.

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