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Thread: Origins of I2a1b

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plashiputak View Post
    Ahem, I have an announcement to make: "The Karos samples’ STR data are 1 genetic distance on 17 loci in the Balkans to a Bulgarian from Montana and 2 mutation steps to a Bulgarian from Sofia, a Bulgarian from Plovdiv, and a Tuscan Albanian".


    https://link.springer.com/article/10...20-019-00996-0
    I assume it means Tosk Albanian, rather than "Tuscan Albanian".

    "We looked at 16 loci from 640 I2a-L621 samples in FTDNA’s I2a project database and found that 7 individuals were 2 genetic steps away the Karos samples, of whom 1 was a Hungarian from Kunszentmárton, 2 were Ukrainians, 1 was Lithuanian, 1 was Belarusian, 1 was Russian, and 1 was a German from Poland. Based on SNP analysis, the CTS10228 group is 2200 ± 300 years old. The group’s demographic expansion may have begun in Southeast Poland around that time, as carriers of the oldest subgroup are found there today. The group cannot solely be tied to the Slavs, because the proto-Slavic period was later, around 300–500 CE. Furthermore, the A2512 subgroup is typically Mediterranean (Greek, Jewish diaspora). We compared 15 loci from our data with Rębała et al.’s (2013) samples and found that 3 Poles and 2 Slovaks are 1 genetic step away, while 2 other Poles are 2 genetic steps away. The Karos samples’ STR data are 1 genetic distance on 17 loci in the Balkans to a Bulgarian from Montana and 2 mutation steps to a Bulgarian from Sofia, a Bulgarian from Plovdiv, and a Tuscan Albanian (see Fig. 7)."

    Pretty interesting info, coincides with what has been theorised prior in regards to CTS10228.
    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241>BY32817 (Y179831)

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS1273*

    Mtdna: T1a1l

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  3. #122
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    Well, the question is about the origin of I2A1B.
    Leaving aside the I2A1B-L621 also known as "Dinaric", there is also the I2A1B-Isles or L161.1.
    This HG is found at highest frequency in Western Ireland (between 5% and 10%).
    How is possible that L621 has the peak in South Eastern Europe and L161.1 has the peak in Ireland?

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  5. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    Well, the question is about the origin of I2A1B.
    Leaving aside the I2A1B-L621 also known as "Dinaric", there is also the I2A1B-Isles or L161.1.
    This HG is found at highest frequency in Western Ireland (between 5% and 10%).
    How is possible that L621 has the peak in South Eastern Europe and L161.1 has the peak in Ireland?
    "Dinaric" I2a comes from one guy; probably a celt who went east, since the ancestral clades seem to point at a west-central origin around south west Germany/East France (Hallstatt territory). Essentially I2a1b was probably a very minor HG, and one dude went along with the celtic incursions east, was very successful with the ladies, and his descendants became part of the proto slavic ethnogenesis. This seems to be the theory at least; we have a disappointing lack of ancient samples, nothing prior to 900 AD which too far beyond the migration period.

    I2a1b-L161.1 is a very minor HG anyway, even in Ireland where it peaks it's only a few percent. It managed to survive there the best but it can be found all over Europe in very minor percentages, including the balkans, but mainly western europe.
    Last edited by Ayetooey; 01-15-2020 at 11:38 PM.

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  7. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    I assume it means Tosk Albanian, rather than "Tuscan Albanian".

    "We looked at 16 loci from 640 I2a-L621 samples in FTDNA’s I2a project database and found that 7 individuals were 2 genetic steps away the Karos samples, of whom 1 was a Hungarian from Kunszentmárton, 2 were Ukrainians, 1 was Lithuanian, 1 was Belarusian, 1 was Russian, and 1 was a German from Poland. Based on SNP analysis, the CTS10228 group is 2200 ± 300 years old. The group’s demographic expansion may have begun in Southeast Poland around that time, as carriers of the oldest subgroup are found there today. The group cannot solely be tied to the Slavs, because the proto-Slavic period was later, around 300–500 CE. Furthermore, the A2512 subgroup is typically Mediterranean (Greek, Jewish diaspora). We compared 15 loci from our data with Rębała et al.’s (2013) samples and found that 3 Poles and 2 Slovaks are 1 genetic step away, while 2 other Poles are 2 genetic steps away. The Karos samples’ STR data are 1 genetic distance on 17 loci in the Balkans to a Bulgarian from Montana and 2 mutation steps to a Bulgarian from Sofia, a Bulgarian from Plovdiv, and a Tuscan Albanian (see Fig. 7)."

    Pretty interesting info, coincides with what has been theorised prior in regards to CTS10228.
    What we see in this quotation is also theoretization. Hungarian conqueror DNA is from 9th century, and they compare it to modern DNA.
    To be 100% sure CTS10228 (Y3120 on Y-full) was present in Zarubinetz culture (and later in Kievan culture) we need aDNA from these cultures.
    To be sure that people from what is now South-East Poland migrated to the East and formed Zarubinetz culture we will need to compare DNA of both groups at least automally.

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  9. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    Well, the question is about the origin of I2A1B.
    Leaving aside the I2A1B-L621 also known as "Dinaric", there is also the I2A1B-Isles or L161.1.
    This HG is found at highest frequency in Western Ireland (between 5% and 10%).
    How is possible that L621 has the peak in South Eastern Europe and L161.1 has the peak in Ireland?
    If you talk about I-M423, this a happlogroup is from Paleolithic Europe, formed 14 000 years before present. More that 10 000 years before groups of people like Slavs, Celts, Germanics emerged.
    Last common ancstor of L-621 and L161.1 lived 11300 years ago.
    There is absolutely nothing strange its branches peak in different parts of Europe.
    Last edited by artemv; 01-16-2020 at 01:37 PM. Reason: typo

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  11. #126
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    They say:

    We looked at 16 loci from 640 I2a-L621 samples in FTDNA’s I2a project database and found that 7 individuals were 2 genetic steps away the Karos samples, of whom 1 was a Hungarian from Kunszentmárton, 2 were Ukrainians, 1 was Lithuanian, 1 was Belarusian, 1 was Russian, and 1 was a German from Poland.
    We determined that the Kunszentmárton Hungarian sample belongs to the A815 subgroup. This is interesting, because this subgroup is also found in Moravia, Slovakia, and Ukraine, and it has a specific North Caucasian Karachay subgroup, as well.


    A815 is my subgroup.
    But they didn't made SNP testing of the samples. It is only STR prediction.

    They further say:

    Three I2a males were present in the sample, with haplotypes I2a1-L621, CTS10228. The males from Karos II grave 52 and Karos III grave 11 were buried with artifacts suggesting they were leaders among the Hungarian Conquerors (Révész 1996).
    The SNP-based age of the Eastern European CTS10228 branch is 2200 ± 300 years old. The carriers of the most ancient subgroup live in Southeast Poland, and it is likely that the rapid demographic expansion which brought the marker to other regions in Europe began there. The largest demographic explosion occurred in the Balkans, where the subgroup is dominant in 50.5% of Croatians, 30.1% of Serbs, 31.4% of Montenegrins, and in about 20% of Albanians and Greeks. As a result, this subgroup is often called Dinaric. It is interesting that while it is dominant among modern Balkan peoples, this subgroup has not been present yet during the Roman period, as it is almost absent in Italy as well (see Online Resource 5; ESM_5).
    The Hungarian Conqueror tribe whose leaders were buried at Karos may be connected to an early wave of this dynamic population expansion. Their genetic haplogroup, I2a-CTS10228, is widespread among Slavs, but it is only present in 7% of Caucasian peoples, namely among the Karachay.
    Although we were unable to analyze the Karos remains any deeper, we did test the closest modern Hungarian Kunszentmárton samples for further mutations. It belonged to the A815 subgroup, which is also present in the Northern Caucasian Karachays, and possibly due to historical Hungarian impact, in the Moravians in the Czech Republic, the Slovaks, and the Ukrainians.
    As such, it appears that the I2a-CTS10228 haplogroup in the paternal lineage of the Karos leaders arises from a specific branch in the Northern Caucasus dating to about 400–500 CE. Its modern descendents live among the Karachay, Hungarians, and various other surrounding nationalities.

    Karos-Eperjesszög II, graves 16 (KEII/16) and 52 (KEII/52); Karos-Eperjesszög III, grave 11 (KEIII/11): I2a1-L621, CTS10228


    Karos-Eperjesszög I, II, III


    A more detailed description of the three Karos cemeteries is also given in (Neparáczki et al., 2016). The site of Karos-Eperjesszög is located in Northeastern Hungary, in Bodrogköz (Borsod-Abaúj-Zemplén County). During the first half of the 10th century CE, this area served as the palatial center and burial place of the Hungarian conquerors. The three cemeteries are situated on low sandhills that are approximately 200 meters from each other.

    Karos-Eperjesszög I: Contained approximately fifty burials, most of which were destroyed during agricultural works, but Tibor Horváth was able to excavate thirteen graves in 1936.

    Karos-Eperjesszög II: This second cemetery was discovered on the center sandhill. A total of seventy-three graves was uncovered by László Révész between 1986 and 1988.

    Karos-Eperjesszög III: This third cemetery is south of Karos-Eperjesszög II and was excavated between 1988 and 1990. A total of nineteen graves was uncovered by László Révész and Mária Wolf. Artifacts were dated using 14C, and the results showed that the coins and other artifacts from the three Karos cemeteries were used between the last decade of the 9th century CE and the mid-10th century CE. The high number of male burials, weapons, and insignias of rank indicates that the wealthiest graves must have belonged to the leaders of the princely retinue (Révész 1996a).

    The archaeological remains of all three Karos cemeteries were examined and published by László Révész (1996b), and the human skeletons were studied by Ágnes Kustár (1996).

    Révész L (1996a) Karos-Eperjesszög, Cemeteries I-III. In: Fodor I, Révész L, Wolf M, M. Nepper I (eds) The Ancient Hungarians. Exhibition Catalogue. Hungarian National Museum, Budapest

    Révész L (1996b) A karosi honfoglalás kori temetők [Karos cemeteries from the Hungarian Conquest period]. Miskolc.

    Kustár Á (1996) A karos-eperjesszögi I-II-III. honfoglalás kori temetők embertani vizsgálata [Anthropological examination of the Hungarian Conqueror cemeteries of Karos-Eperjesszög]. In: Révész L A karosi honfoglalás kori temetők [The Hungarian Conqueror cemeteries of Karos-Eperjesszög]. Miskolc, 395-456
    Last edited by ph2ter; 01-16-2020 at 08:34 AM.
     
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  13. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by ph2ter View Post
    They say:

    We looked at 16 loci from 640 I2a-L621 samples in FTDNA’s I2a project database and found that 7 individuals were 2 genetic steps away the Karos samples, of whom 1 was a Hungarian from Kunszentmárton, 2 were Ukrainians, 1 was Lithuanian, 1 was Belarusian, 1 was Russian, and 1 was a German from Poland.
    We determined that the Kunszentmárton Hungarian sample belongs to the A815 subgroup. This is interesting, because this subgroup is also found in Moravia, Slovakia, and Ukraine, and it has a specific North Caucasian Karachay subgroup, as well.


    A815 is my subgroup.
    But they didn't made SNP testing of the samples. It is only STR prediction.
    Three Conqueror samples from this paper (K2/16, K2/52, K3/11), and one from Neparaczki et al. 2016 (K3/12) have identical haplotypes with available STRs, and three of them (K2/16, K2/52 and K3/12) were SNP tested as L621+ and S17250- in Neparaczki et al. 2019, so they can't belong to A815. NevGen gives highest probability to Z17855, and then to Y4460, but the fit is almost equal. Based on modern distribution I'd say Y4460 is more probable, as Z17855 is concentrated mostly in the Balkans. Y4460 has more Central/Eastern European distribution, with several modern Hungarians belonging to downstream subclades. F17741 looks particularly interesting, as it contains both Hungarian and two Bashkirs, and we know Bashkirs live in the territory of former Magna Hungaria.

    https://i.postimg.cc/Cx1vc63k/HQ.png

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  15. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pribislav View Post
    Three Conqueror samples from this paper (K2/16, K2/52, K3/11), and one from Neparaczki et al. 2016 (K3/12) have identical haplotypes with available STRs, and three of them (K2/16, K2/52 and K3/12) were SNP tested as L621+ and S17250- in Neparaczki et al. 2019, so they can't belong to A815. NevGen gives highest probability to Z17855, and then to Y4460, but the fit is almost equal. Based on modern distribution I'd say Y4460 is more probable, as Z17855 is concentrated mostly in the Balkans. Y4460 has more Central/Eastern European distribution, with several modern Hungarians belonging to downstream subclades. F17741 looks particularly interesting, as it contains both Hungarian and two Bashkirs, and we know Bashkirs live in the territory of former Magna Hungaria.

    https://i.postimg.cc/Cx1vc63k/HQ.png
    But Z17855 is also common among Hungarians.
     
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  16. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pribislav View Post
    Three Conqueror samples from this paper (K2/16, K2/52, K3/11), and one from Neparaczki et al. 2016 (K3/12) have identical haplotypes with available STRs, and three of them (K2/16, K2/52 and K3/12) were SNP tested as L621+ and S17250- in Neparaczki et al. 2019, so they can't belong to A815. NevGen gives highest probability to Z17855, and then to Y4460, but the fit is almost equal. Based on modern distribution I'd say Y4460 is more probable, as Z17855 is concentrated mostly in the Balkans. Y4460 has more Central/Eastern European distribution, with several modern Hungarians belonging to downstream subclades. F17741 looks particularly interesting, as it contains both Hungarian and two Bashkirs, and we know Bashkirs live in the territory of former Magna Hungaria.

    https://i.postimg.cc/Cx1vc63k/HQ.png
    "The Karos samples’ STR data are 1 genetic distance on 17 loci in the Balkans to a Bulgarian from Montana and 2 mutation steps to a Bulgarian from Sofia, a Bulgarian from Plovdiv, and a Tuscan Albanian". Hello? Can you read?

    12520_2019_996_Fig7_HTML.png
    Last edited by Plashiputak; 01-16-2020 at 06:36 PM.

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  18. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plashiputak View Post
    "The Karos samples’ STR data are 1 genetic distance on 17 loci in the Balkans to a Bulgarian from Montana and 2 mutation steps to a Bulgarian from Sofia, a Bulgarian from Plovdiv, and a Tuscan Albanian". Hello? Can you read?

    Hello to you too rook. Do you have a point here or you're just playing dumb?

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