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Thread: Genetic Landscape of the West Eurasian Steppe before and after the Scythian Dominance

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dewsloth View Post
    Maybe with the Visigoths?

    Attachment 31784

    1500 years later and you look like I12034
    12034 has a Basque/SW French profile, though
    Which isn't surprising, I generally get pretty good fits when those groups are involved in the model. I am horribly ungermanic though
    YDNA - E-Y31991>PF4428>E-Y134097>E-Y168273 (probably Scythian-Sarmatian). Domingos Rodrigues, b. circa 1680 Hidden Content , Viana do Castelo, Portugal
    mtDNA - H20. Maria Josefa de Almeida, b. circa 1750 Hidden Content , Porto, Portugal

    Global25 PCA West Eurasia dataset Hidden Content
    Hidden Content


    [1] "distance%=1.7726"

    Ruderico

    Celtiberian,77.6
    Roman_Imperial_proxy,13.6
    Guanche,8.8

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    12034 has a Basque/SW French profile, though
    Which isn't surprising, I generally get pretty good fits when those groups are involved in the model. I am horribly ungermanic though
    I'm a little rusty, but didn't the Cimmerians or Scythians (related peoples) make their way into central and SE Europe in about the 8th century BC and introduce the light chariot to the Celts?

    Maybe your ancestor married a Celtic woman and became part of a Celtic tribe. Maybe he or one of his y-chromosome descendants made his way to Iberia with some other Celts.

    Just a thought, but stranger things have happened.
    Last edited by rms2; 07-16-2019 at 11:14 AM.
     


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    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36981 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982 >FGC36981)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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  4. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    I'm a little rusty, but didn't the Cimmerians or Scythians (related peoples) make their way into central and SE Europe in about the 8th century BC and introduce the light chariot to the Celts?

    Maybe your ancestor married a Celtic woman and became part of a Celtic tribe, his y-dna eventually making its way to Iberia with one of his descendants (or himself).

    Just a thought, and stranger things have happened.
    That's perfectly plausible aswell, I guess there are plenty of hypothesis for a Scythian uniparental marker to make its way this far West.
    An interesting thing that happened, in one of my first posts on this forum I said I was "Mostly interested in Iberian history and genetics, but I have curiosity about asian IEs (Indo-persian, always found Scythians fascinating)". It feels like poetic justice
    Last edited by Ruderico; 07-16-2019 at 12:13 PM.
    YDNA - E-Y31991>PF4428>E-Y134097>E-Y168273 (probably Scythian-Sarmatian). Domingos Rodrigues, b. circa 1680 Hidden Content , Viana do Castelo, Portugal
    mtDNA - H20. Maria Josefa de Almeida, b. circa 1750 Hidden Content , Porto, Portugal

    Global25 PCA West Eurasia dataset Hidden Content
    Hidden Content


    [1] "distance%=1.7726"

    Ruderico

    Celtiberian,77.6
    Roman_Imperial_proxy,13.6
    Guanche,8.8

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  6. #64
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    Alans came to Spain with the Visigoths, there is even a breed of dog brought here and named by the alans
    Alain Dad
    Y-DNA R1a-Y33 Eastern Corderd Ware Culture Baltoslavic/ old Pruzzen
    H76 czech Republic/England (Celtic tribes ?) W3a1d Yamnaya Culture, Samara /Pontic steppe
    Scytho-sarmatian.

    My FTDNA autosomal

    East Europe 82%
    Southeast Europe 14%
    Finland 2%
    West and Central Europe 1%

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  8. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alain View Post
    Alans came to Spain with the Visigoths, there is even a breed of dog brought here and named by the alans
    In Spain they teach us that the Alans entered Spain together with the Vandals and Suebi. Visigoths arrived later (as Roman foederati) and crushed them. The surviving Alans were assimilated by the Vandals and eventually fled to North Africa.

    The ones that remained in France were indeed subjugated by Franks and Visigoths. Probably acting as allies for ones or the others at their convenience in their fight to control Gaul.

    Hydatius mentions they settled mainly in Lusitania, another circumstantial evidence to support the idea of Ruderico's ancestor being an Alan.
    Last edited by Shadogowah; 07-16-2019 at 03:29 PM.
    Do you have a question or topic about genetics in Spain and/or prefer to use Spanish language? Visit the new subforum!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadogowah View Post
    What they teach us in Spain is that the Alans entered Spain together with the Vandals and Suebi.

    The Visigoths arrived later (as Roman allies) and crushed them. The surviving Alans were assimilated by the Vandals and eventually fled to North Africa.

    The ones that remained in France were indeed eventually subjugated by Franks and Visigoths.
    Yes, here they teach us the same, but the problem is that there are very little actual sources from modern Portugal after the Roman empire's grip over western Iberia collapsed.
    What we know is that they were allied with the Vandals, but in Portugal settled mostly in the southern half (whereas the Vandals settled in Galicia, so they were physically separated for a while) and fought the Roman allies and eventually got defeated - the Suebi got beaten back too, but their presence remained. The issue here is that there were also interactions between Suebi and Alans in modern Central Portugal, although the historiography on that is fragile because there are barely any sources. I think it's perfectly plausible that some of them integrated into what would become the Suebi kingdom, as there are indeed reamnants of their presence here..but they were not very relevant, certainly a much lesser deal than Goths or Suebi


    Edit: It's also possible the line actually moved into north Africa and came back again in 711, but none of my matches are from north Africa, they are all of Iberian descent so I don't find it very likely. Probably some Alan just had a kid here and stayed for whatever reason, Portugal is a nice country, I don't blame him for staying
    Last edited by Ruderico; 07-17-2019 at 01:32 AM.
    YDNA - E-Y31991>PF4428>E-Y134097>E-Y168273 (probably Scythian-Sarmatian). Domingos Rodrigues, b. circa 1680 Hidden Content , Viana do Castelo, Portugal
    mtDNA - H20. Maria Josefa de Almeida, b. circa 1750 Hidden Content , Porto, Portugal

    Global25 PCA West Eurasia dataset Hidden Content
    Hidden Content


    [1] "distance%=1.7726"

    Ruderico

    Celtiberian,77.6
    Roman_Imperial_proxy,13.6
    Guanche,8.8

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  12. #67
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    Does sample MJ12 (911 BC) have Greek ancestry?

    [1] "distance%=2.6098"

    UKR_Cimmerian_MJ12

    GRC_Mycenaean_I9041,29.2
    GRC_Mycenaean_I9006,20.6
    Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2_I8215,20.2

    Baltic_EST_BA_0LS11_1,10.6
    KAZ_Oy_Dzhaylau_MLBA_o1_I3860,6.2
    KAZ_Oy_Dzhaylau_MLBA_I4791,5.6
    Iberia_Northeast_BA_I4560,5.2
    KAZ_Oy_Dzhaylau_MLBA_I3861,2.2
    VUT_2500BP_TAN002,0.2

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  14. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alain View Post
    Alans came to Spain with the Visigoths, there is even a breed of dog brought here and named by the alans
    Speaking of Germanic-Alan guys - I may have stumbled on evidence of just that around the area when the Huns invaded in my entry for the U106+ guy in the 5th cent Hunnic burial ground - I didn't have any info on him so I asked some people here... his entry was:

    Hunnic burial site from the 5th century at Kecskemét-Mindszenti-dűlő/2785

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...97997.full.pdf

    Sample 2785 at this Hunnic cemetery is positive for U106. I have not been able to find details of this burial site yet to add to this list. Date is 5th century (400s AD).

    and I got this response:

    I think it wasn’t published yet… we’re talking about a big (47 Ha) excavation site. It seems that this high social status dude was Alan/Sarmatian, despite the artificial cranial deformation (he was buried in a catacomb grave)
    https://index.hu/galeria/index/tudom...ezdese_elott/5
    https://24.hu/tudomany/2017/05/31/ta...ttila-kiralyt/

    Remember that some of the females in the early Baiuvarii paper from burials around Munich were also ACD and we have the "Danubian Style" burials with grave goods in Germanic contexts that mimicked Attila and the Hunnic burials of his time period... though no U106+ male samples from the Baiuvarii were ACD - but this guy was apparently! Some evidence for a Germanic/Nomadic connection with the Huns and that time period... perhaps! I think it's enough... in a general kind of way, but don't know the particulars yet!

    Hmm the link above didn't work so I'm posting it here: https://galeria.index.hu/tudomany/20...ezdese_elott/5

    same with the 2nd link: https://24.hu/tudomany/2017/05/31/ta...ttila-kiralyt/

    In particular I noticed his text in one of the links for the site: a large number of mixed Germanic-Alan population in the Carpathian Basin. Then the Huns arrived in 420, but here they stopped and formed the center of their empire. With the death of Attila, the whole collapsed, so the Hun era covers just over three decades between the Carpathians and 420-453.

    Edit: found some more on grave 2785 - hmm didn't see this before (paper link: http://www.ace.hu/am/2019_1/AM-2019-1-MV.pdf)

    A lonely grave (SNR 2785) of an 18–20-year-old
    man was discovered during the preventive
    excavation of the expansion of the Mercedes
    factory in Kecskemét-Mindszenti-dűlő in 2017.
    Based on the attire items (gold hair ring, knife with
    a gold sheat-decorated handle, different buckles
    covered with gold foil) and the sword buried with
    the deceased, the grave can be dated to the Hunnic
    period. The sword also indicates his high social
    status, who supposed to be a noble member of the
    society. Both the finds and the rite of this burial
    differs from the traditions of the Sarmatians, who
    lived in this area during this period. This may prove
    that after the arrival of the Huns into the Carpathian
    Basin, they chose one of their nobility to be the
    leader of the Sarmatians, who lived this area of the
    Danube-Tisza Interfluve for hundreds of years. The
    deceased can be this nobility or one of his relatives.

    The material and the corrosion products of gold and
    gilded silver objects, namely a gold hair ring, a
    ribbed gold sheet and four gilded silver buckles
    found in the grave (Fig. 9.), were analysed nondestructively by using EPMA and μ-XRD (Fig. 1d).
    The silver objects are heavily corroded; therefore,
    the original composition of the used alloy can
    barely be determined.

    (Now I'm off to update my aDNA U106+ sample list with this new info!).
    Last edited by Bollox79; 07-16-2019 at 09:11 PM.
    Y-DNA: 4th GGF Adam Weaver born 1785 in Pennsylvania (most likely German) - Sergeant, US 17th Inf, War of 1812: R1b-U106-Z381-Z156-Z305/306/307-Z304-DF98-S1911-S1894/S1900-S4004/FGC14818/FGC14823-FGC14816/FGC14817 shared with 6drif-3!

    mtDNA: 3rd GGM Bridget Dana b. 1843 Ireland - T2b2b - Pagan Migrant Icelander SSG-A3 (grave 4?) - Sílastaðir in Eyjafjarðarsýsla, North Iceland is T2b2b. Relative of King Bela III of Hungary (his Y-DNA and autosomal kinsman buried near him had mtDNA T2b2b1)!

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  16. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bollox79 View Post
    Speaking of Germanic-Alan guys - I may have stumbled on evidence of just that around the area when the Huns invaded in my entry for the U106+ guy in the 5th cent Hunnic burial ground - I didn't have any info on him so I asked some people here... his entry was:

    Hunnic burial site from the 5th century at Kecskemét-Mindszenti-dűlő/2785

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...97997.full.pdf

    Sample 2785 at this Hunnic cemetery is positive for U106. I have not been able to find details of this burial site yet to add to this list. Date is 5th century (400s AD).

    and I got this response:

    I think it wasn’t published yet… we’re talking about a big (47 Ha) excavation site. It seems that this high social status dude was Alan/Sarmatian, despite the artificial cranial deformation (he was buried in a catacomb grave)
    https://index.hu/galeria/index/tudom...ezdese_elott/5
    https://24.hu/tudomany/2017/05/31/ta...ttila-kiralyt/

    Remember that some of the females in the early Baiuvarii paper from burials around Munich were also ACD and we have the "Danubian Style" burials with grave goods in Germanic contexts that mimicked Attila and the Hunnic burials of his time period... though no U106+ male samples from the Baiuvarii were ACD - but this guy was apparently! Some evidence for a Germanic/Nomadic connection with the Huns and that time period... perhaps! I think it's enough... in a general kind of way, but don't know the particulars yet!

    Hmm the link above didn't work so I'm posting it here: https://galeria.index.hu/tudomany/20...ezdese_elott/5

    same with the 2nd link: https://24.hu/tudomany/2017/05/31/ta...ttila-kiralyt/

    In particular I noticed his text in one of the links for the site: a large number of mixed Germanic-Alan population in the Carpathian Basin. Then the Huns arrived in 420, but here they stopped and formed the center of their empire. With the death of Attila, the whole collapsed, so the Hun era covers just over three decades between the Carpathians and 420-453.

    Edit: found some more on grave 2785 - hmm didn't see this before (paper link: http://www.ace.hu/am/2019_1/AM-2019-1-MV.pdf)

    A lonely grave (SNR 2785) of an 18–20-year-old
    man was discovered during the preventive
    excavation of the expansion of the Mercedes
    factory in Kecskemét-Mindszenti-dűlő in 2017.
    Based on the attire items (gold hair ring, knife with
    a gold sheat-decorated handle, different buckles
    covered with gold foil) and the sword buried with
    the deceased, the grave can be dated to the Hunnic
    period. The sword also indicates his high social
    status, who supposed to be a noble member of the
    society. Both the finds and the rite of this burial
    differs from the traditions of the Sarmatians, who
    lived in this area during this period. This may prove
    that after the arrival of the Huns into the Carpathian
    Basin, they chose one of their nobility to be the
    leader of the Sarmatians, who lived this area of the
    Danube-Tisza Interfluve for hundreds of years. The
    deceased can be this nobility or one of his relatives.

    The material and the corrosion products of gold and
    gilded silver objects, namely a gold hair ring, a
    ribbed gold sheet and four gilded silver buckles
    found in the grave (Fig. 9.), were analysed nondestructively by using EPMA and μ-XRD (Fig. 1d).
    The silver objects are heavily corroded; therefore,
    the original composition of the used alloy can
    barely be determined.

    (Now I'm off to update my aDNA U106+ sample list with this new info!).
    From Wiki:

    “The Thuringii established an empire in the late 5th century. It reached its territorial peak in the first half of the 6th before it was conquered by the Franks in 531–532. Examination of Thuringian grave sites reveal cranial features which suggest the strong presence of Hunnic women or slaves, perhaps indicating that many Thuringians took Hunnic wives or Hunnic slaves following the collapse of the Hunnic Empire.[5] There is also evidence from jewellery found in graves that the Thuringians sought marriages with Ostrogothic and Lombard women.[citation needed] Under the leadership of Alboin, a large group of Thuringii joined the Lombards on their migration into Italy.[6] The Lombard king Agilulf (590–616) was of Thuringian descent.”

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  18. #70
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    All of the samples from Medieval Bavaria with Artificial Cranial Deformation (ACD) and Asian ancestry are probably of Ostrogothic origin, because most have Ostrogothic grave goods (bow-brooches).

    Check out table Table S1 on page 96 here...

    https://www.pnas.org/highwire/filest...80115.sapp.pdf

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