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Thread: Serious question for genealogists, experts, and project admins.

  1. #11
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,111
    Sex
    Location
    United States
    Ethnicity
    Albanian
    Nationality
    American
    mtDNA (M)
    H11a2*-146+
    mtDNA (P)
    T1a1I
    Y-DNA (M)
    J2b-L283>PH1751
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a-L1029>Y133383

    Albania Kosovo Macedonia United States of America Sweden Greece
    It all depends on clades. Some users from the project are bonkers and blow it out of proportion. However, certain clades are tied to the migration of particular cultures. Most of the people in the project with this tunnel vision are not admins themselves. For the most part admins make calculated guesses based on the data. But this should only apply in the case of the original bearer that passes the line to the individual and not the individual themselves. As Mitchell illustrated, having a Viking line but 100 percent Sicilian dna does not make one a Viking. Same as African Americans with Anglo Ydna doesn’t make them Anglo. Identity is largely personal and also a product of accumulated ancestry that changes generationally due to intermarriage.


    For the Y chromosome by it self, determination is all reliant on data both modern and ancient to extract such understanding. As well as carbon dating methods. The lineage itself is not Slavic. However, select clades of R1a have participated and expanded with the Slavic ethnogenesis. There is of course the fact that these lineages were absorbed and expanded out again over the ages under later cultures as well during the late Middle Ages and recent history.

    For instance R1a-Z93/Z280/M458/Z284/L664 are all separated by thousands of years. They all participated in separate cultural ethnogenesis’ yet still have a common forefather to R1a-M417(with the exception of L664 who was a cousin if I’m not mistaken). The oldest M417 currently is found in Ukraine. This is why it is believed to be the Proto-Indo-European patriline. If a older sample emerges elsewhere the narrative is refined. Yet, it is important to view each clade contextually with the data available and make an educated assumption as is the case with scientific method.

    To provide an example using my R1a branch. I am L1029, a branch of M458. However, I form an Albanian specific founder clade with a common ancestor living 1100-1200ybp. A German with YP619 has a clade separate from my own yet distantly related to our common forefather L1029. Most YP619 is German and some West Slavic. Likely in their case this was due to assimilated Wendish tribes that likely formed founder effects locally that spread with them. So a British person under this clade could recently have a German ancestor who brought the line to England whilst being distantly related to the Wendish tribesman that implanted the lineage into Germany. It’s like connecting puzzle pieces together.

    In my case, a basal L1029 made its way to the Balkans where the forefather was assimilated and had a founder effect among Proto Albanians. This formed a clade that so far is found and spread only by Albanians. Using the carbon dating methods this Albanian forefather lived 1100-1200 years ago. This suggests his non Albanian ancestor settled sometime before then. Whilst there is no pre-migration data, it is assumed due to the overwhelming majority of diversity being in west Slavs and East Germans that it spread from Central Europe with Slavic tribes.

    Today Viking samples were released that had L1029 that were autosomally almost entirely East European like. Whilst this doesn’t tell us where the line originated in the Bronze and Iron Age, it does clearly show that the genetic composition of these men was in line with modern populations bearing the same lineage in majority.

    Going as far back as M420 is fruitless because there are no ancient confirmation for this lineage. The assumption of its origin in Iran is based on modern Kurds who are basal M420. M198 is even older. We can keep going like a time machine down from the forefather of the forefather of the forefather and so on. Some clades of L1029 are shared between Scandinavians and West Slavs. Historically we know the two intermixed and that Slavic Vikings were a think jointing heathen raiding parties. Further illustrating its occurrence in England.

    This applies to every other clade of R1a today and that’s why care is taken to evaluate each case separately. Z280 is even more sporadic in this case. It’s found in Baltic’s predominantly l, then Slavs and now in some ancient Andronovo like Scythian samples, even avar and Magyar conquerors. Yet, it’s important to look at their clades and STR values to establish their matches. Nothing is 100 percent knowable but we tirelessly work to dissect these things and arrive at the most likely scenarios of its delivery from one people to another.

    Of course this is merely one ancestor in a line of ancestors by proxy via our MTDNA. So the dna of the delivering forefather is washed away. Of course we are not them. We are what our genetics and identity currently display. This is why mtdna is important because it transmits older dna. But it’s also important to remember autosomal dna has random recombination events, selecting some ancestries over others.

    To close out, if all L1029 went extinct and the land was repopulated with my clade, they would eventually be able to tell that all L1029 descended from the direction of Southern Europe where it’s forefathers moved from. L1029 went through near extinction in the Iron Age. Even though it formed 3000 years ago, it’s only survivor was 2000 years ago. All his cousins died out. So our understanding of his origin and migration hinges on modern diversity and spread.

    This is why it’s important to view things contextually rather than generally. If we are to be specific, R1a by itself was likely Siberian/Mongol like. His descendants and their descendants evolved over time.

    l1029 could have been a Proto Slav, a Balt, or even a Goth in my case, who joined Proto Albanians and whose descendants were a part of the Albanian ethnogenesis. Whereas a distant L1029 cousin became German and formed their own clades.

    I recommend everyone do BigY as it removes all confusion and doubt and is the highest resolution testing that can identity unique markers which help branch out the family tree of lineages. Y37 or other basic STR tests will only take you so far. Especially when you have a founder effect you can get false reads, no calls etc.

    Ok I’m done with the essay sorry guys lolol
    Last edited by Dibran; 07-19-2019 at 03:27 AM.
    Known Ancestry: Albanian
    23andme results: 94% Balkan, 0.9% Italian, 0.8% Middle Eastern, 2.2% broadly southern European, 0.3 British & Irish, 0.3% Japanese, 0.5% unassigned
    MyOrigins2.0: 100% Southeast European
    MyAncientOrigins: 62% Farmer, 24% Hunter Gatherer, 14% Metal Age Invader
    MyHeritage: 76% Greek, 16% Balkan, 8% Italian
    WeGene: 99.5% Balkan, 0.5% unassigned
    GenePlaza: 92.7% East Mediterranean, 5.2% Southwestern European, 1.5% Ambiguous
    DNA.LAND: 95% Balkan, 5% Sardinian

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to Dibran For This Useful Post:

     trdbr1234 (08-01-2019)

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