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Thread: New Simulated AASI G25 Coordinates (+ Updates)

  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMXX View Post
    Here are the ancient AASI_NW sims (which behave much better):

    Code:
    Simulated_AASI_NW_by_DMXX:NW_GonurBA2,0.11654444,-0.24601512,-0.40786925,0.27912068,-0.08462687,0.19040689,0.01482058,0.08748247,0.23331823,0.24528932,0.04674712,0.06256435,-0.05807151,0.09169702,-0.02552067,-0.21990369,0.02266234,-0.02176736,0.00727159,0.10469132,0.01448416,0.01698205,0.01663966,0.07459003,-0.10404766
    Simulated_AASI_NW_by_DMXX:NW_SiSBA2,0.09328677,-0.25142149,-0.25156984,0.38071115,-0.15498282,0.22898434,-0.0149785,0.04603814,0.20477071,0.10938937,0.00117405,0.04946831,-0.03015784,-0.03877557,-0.0118525,-0.18752632,-0.03463192,-0.04245062,-0.0494093,0.04451038,-0.03914757,0.01133266,0.03834731,0.070928,-0.10628443
    Simulated_AASI_NW_by_DMXX:NW_SiSBA3,0.00626452,-0.26734243,-0.2643032,0.24953728,-0.07059554,0.1259178,-0.00227516,0.03540285,0.19403857,0.14887817,-0.0086271,0.01680744,-0.02608023,0.04392062,-0.03238295,-0.06722619,0.03334912,-0.00690446,-0.01318708,0.0388334,-0.00267339,0.01145176,0.01038688,0.04030307,-0.04887722
    Simulated_AASI_NW_by_DMXX:NW_SGPT,0.01615338,-0.22505484,-0.37905649,0.18477363,-0.16668914,0.16382842,0.02481901,0.06452209,0.05034096,0.03784746,-0.05375015,0.01405764,-0.00918092,0.05309405,0.01625326,-0.04481805,0.00194808,-0.01253792,-0.0288336,0.0286508,0.03216633,-0.00013407,0.01228559,0.04037898,-0.00001027
    Hello DMXX. I know this is a bit of a dormant thread, but I was playing around with the AASI sims without penalty engaged and realized that there is a faint West Eurasian Iberia Southeast Meso pull in tribal SI or lower caste NW populations (might be corelated with haplo H spread), that's not being excluded by the sims. I am analyzing the individual samples both NW and S for that reason. Can you tell me what source population you used for the "AASI by DMXX: NW SPGT" component? Was it Saidu Sharif H outlier?
    Mehrgarh v1.

    sample: kamil154
    distance: 2.17
    Sistano-Turanian Proto-Urbanist (LCA): 35.2
    South Asian HG (MP): 23.6
    Proto-Indo-Iranian (MLBA): 18
    Proto-East Iranic (EBA): 14.6
    Pamir Knot HG (EM): 8.6

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  3. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamil154 View Post
    Hello DMXX. I know this is a bit of a dormant thread, but I was playing around with the AASI sims without penalty engaged and realized that there is a faint West Eurasian Iberia Southeast Meso pull in tribal SI or lower caste NW populations (might be corelated with haplo H spread), that's not being excluded by the sims. I am analyzing the individual samples both NW and S for that reason. Can you tell me what source population you used for the "AASI by DMXX: NW SPGT" component? Was it Saidu Sharif H outlier?
    There is something wrong the SGPT AASI and Gonur_BA2 AASI. They should be removed from the NW AASI averages. They seem to be reducing everyone's Iran_N and elevating WSHG ancestry. The Irula, Pulliyar, and Mala AASI definitely have West Eurasian/ANE ancestry. Hakkipikki AASI is excellent though to capture Southern AASI.


    Using NW AASI and South AASI averages:

    Target: Gujarati:NA20856
    Distance: 2.5072% / 0.02507213
    42.8 Iran_N
    35.8 AASI
    12.0 WSHG
    9.4 Anatolia_N


    Target: Khatri:K-84
    Distance: 1.9537% / 0.01953655
    44.8 Iran_N
    19.2 WSHG
    17.8 AASI
    16.4 Anatolia_N
    1.8 E_Asian_N



    Using only SISBA2, SISBA3 and Hakkipikki AASI with the same 2 people:

    Target: Gujarati:NA20856
    Distance: 2.3119% / 0.02311905
    48.6 Iran_N
    34.4 AASI
    8.4 WSHG
    8.6 Anatolia_N



    Target: Khatri:K-84
    Distance: 1.9214% / 0.01921383
    47.2 Iran_N
    17.6 AASI
    15.8 Anatolia_N
    15.8 WSHG
    2.2 E_Asian_N
    1.4 CHG
    Last edited by cresscairan; 06-25-2021 at 04:51 PM.

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  5. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by cresscairan View Post
    There is something wrong the SGPT AASI and Gonur_BA2 AASI. They should be removed from the NW AASI averages. They seem to be reducing everyone's Iran_N and elevating WSHG ancestry. The Irula, Pulliyar, and Mala AASI definitely have West Eurasian/ANE ancestry. Hakkipikki AASI is excellent though to capture Southern AASI.


    Using NW AASI and South AASI averages:

    Target: Gujarati:NA20856
    Distance: 2.5072% / 0.02507213
    42.8 Iran_N
    35.8 AASI
    12.0 WSHG
    9.4 Anatolia_N


    Target: Khatri:K-84
    Distance: 1.9537% / 0.01953655
    44.8 Iran_N
    19.2 WSHG
    17.8 AASI
    16.4 Anatolia_N
    1.8 E_Asian_N



    Using only SISBA2, SISBA3 and Hakkipikki AASI with the same 2 people:

    Target: Gujarati:NA20856
    Distance: 2.3119% / 0.02311905
    48.6 Iran_N
    34.4 AASI
    8.4 WSHG
    8.6 Anatolia_N



    Target: Khatri:K-84
    Distance: 1.9214% / 0.01921383
    47.2 Iran_N
    17.6 AASI
    15.8 Anatolia_N
    15.8 WSHG
    2.2 E_Asian_N
    1.4 CHG
    One cannot expect Autochthonous South Asian Hunter Gatherers to be homogenous given the geographic expanse of South Asia and the diverse neighboring populations. The Hunter Gatherers from Europe form a cline with those from the western most regions of the peninsula WHG to those genetically close to ANE.
    Something similar appears to be the case with these simulations, they sit on a cline with S-AASI being closer to the Andaman Islanders, while Gonur BA being the most shifted away from them.
    AASI-SPGT is based on populations in the far North-West of Pakistan with a shared pre-SPGT population history with cultures to the north and west in addition to IVC.
    I could be wrong but they appear to have some additional ancestry pulling them away from that cline which is not discernible on this PCA.
    Screen Shot 2021-06-27 at 1.53.10 AM.png
     

    Target: Kapisa_scaled
    Distance: 1.9097% / 0.01909703
    45.4 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2_I8728
    21.2 TJK_Sarazm_En
    17.0 KAZ_Ak_Moustafa_MLBA1
    7.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    6.4 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
    2.4 CHN_Upper_Yellow_River_LN

    Target: Kapisa_dad_scaled
    Distance: 2.1794% / 0.02179440
    43.8 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2_I8728
    19.8 KAZ_Ak_Moustafa_MLBA1
    15.8 TJK_Sarazm_En
    13.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    4.8 TUR_Barcin_N
    2.2 CHN_Upper_Yellow_River_LN
    0.4 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N


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  7. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kapisa View Post
    One cannot expect Autochthonous South Asian Hunter Gatherers to be homogenous given the geographic expanse of South Asia and the diverse neighboring populations. The Hunter Gatherers from Europe form a cline with those from the western most regions of the peninsula WHG to those genetically close to ANE.
    Something similar appears to be the case with these simulations, they sit on a cline with S-AASI being closer to the Andaman Islanders, while Gonur BA being the most shifted away from them.
    AASI-SPGT is based on populations in the far North-West of Pakistan with a shared pre-SPGT population history with cultures to the north and west in addition to IVC.
    I could be wrong but they appear to have some additional ancestry pulling them away from that cline which is not discernible on this PCA.
    Screen Shot 2021-06-27 at 1.53.10 AM.png
    Add Hoabinhian, Papuan, Australian and other samples from East/Southeast Asia, add Natufian, Dinka/Yoruba as well.

  8. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kapisa View Post
    One cannot expect Autochthonous South Asian Hunter Gatherers to be homogenous given the geographic expanse of South Asia and the diverse neighboring populations. The Hunter Gatherers from Europe form a cline with those from the western most regions of the peninsula WHG to those genetically close to ANE.
    Something similar appears to be the case with these simulations, they sit on a cline with S-AASI being closer to the Andaman Islanders, while Gonur BA being the most shifted away from them.
    AASI-SPGT is based on populations in the far North-West of Pakistan with a shared pre-SPGT population history with cultures to the north and west in addition to IVC.
    I could be wrong but they appear to have some additional ancestry pulling them away from that cline which is not discernible on this PCA.
    Screen Shot 2021-06-27 at 1.53.10 AM.png
    I doubt that any of these pulls we're seen are fake. In the case of NW AASI it appears to be a Pamir Knot HG (Proto-Sarazm) type pull that predates IVC. It seems that Late Paleolithic/Upper Mesolithic Pamir/Hindukush was already a mix of Dzudzuana HG and WSHG before Iran N type ancestry overlayed onto it. In fact, personally I'm convinced that there was a Upper Paleolithic Trans-Caspian/Pamir Knot/Trans-Himalayan HG cline from 100% Dzudzuana HG to 100% WSHG (Similar to how there would have been a WHG-EHG-WSHG cline further North). This ancestry type seems to correlate with Haplogroup L spread. Elementally speaking, populations on this cline show up with elevated CHG and WSHG that is NOT matched with a proportional increase in ANF (Dards, SPGT and believe it or not even South Indian tribals including Andhra Pradesh are on this cline). Populations with elevated CHG that also show up with a proportional rise in ANF indicate a more recent Gonur3 type tilt rather than a pre-IVC one.

    At the far eastern end of this cline was a Trans-Himalayan HG position in Tibet (prior to introduction of Yellow River type modern NE-Asian mix) that was fully WSHG or maybe even some kind of early WSHG with an additional archaic Hoabinhian/Kolyma pull (probably a very early Haplo D remanant). Manipuri Brahmins, West Bengal Brahmins, NE Indians and even some Burmese show up with this excessive WSHG, but not a lot of CHG alongside. Associated Haplos with this type of mix would likely have been Haplogroup Q, R2.
    Last edited by kamil154; 06-28-2021 at 04:36 AM.
    Mehrgarh v1.

    sample: kamil154
    distance: 2.17
    Sistano-Turanian Proto-Urbanist (LCA): 35.2
    South Asian HG (MP): 23.6
    Proto-Indo-Iranian (MLBA): 18
    Proto-East Iranic (EBA): 14.6
    Pamir Knot HG (EM): 8.6

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  10. #206
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    I am also convinced that Haplogroup R2 spread in South Asia is probably older than when it first appeared in Ganj Dareh due to our proximity to the WSHG source. I also think that examples where populations seem to prefer a more WSHG shifted Steppe MLBA source are actually an artifact of bad modelling that does not adequately account for the Paleo/Meso pulls in South Asia, thereby preferring Steppe sources with a more eastern pull.
    Last edited by kamil154; 06-28-2021 at 03:45 AM.
    Mehrgarh v1.

    sample: kamil154
    distance: 2.17
    Sistano-Turanian Proto-Urbanist (LCA): 35.2
    South Asian HG (MP): 23.6
    Proto-Indo-Iranian (MLBA): 18
    Proto-East Iranic (EBA): 14.6
    Pamir Knot HG (EM): 8.6

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  12. #207
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    I'm working on a Pamir Knot HG Early Meso ghost. Here is what distances from Sarazm (with AASI + Bustan/Anau/Parkhai En Central Asian cluster deducted) look like:

    Distance to: PKHG
    0.17377623 Kalash
    0.19332154 Tajik_Ishkashim
    0.19339976 Kho_Singanali
    0.19619077 Tajik_Shugnan
    0.19640970 Tajik_Rushan
    0.19694467 Uthmankhel
    0.19885592 Tarkalani
    0.19964766 Darginian
    0.20019244 Yusufzai
    0.20067892 Ror
    0.20135916 Jatt_Pathak
    0.20209853 Balochi
    0.20240158 Pashtun
    0.20273623 Iran_Baloch
    0.20283638 Kubachinian
    0.20344308 Brahui
    0.20357906 Tajik_Yagnobi
    0.20452420 Kohistani
    0.20515822 Kamboj
    0.20545689 Lak
    0.20611942 Punjabi_Jatt
    0.20627040 Avar
    0.20714732 Khatri
    0.20794988 Kaitag
    0.20989636 Gujar_Pakistan
    0.21031450 Punjabi_Sikh_India
    0.21211752 Tajik
    0.21265710 Kashmiri_Pandit
    0.21361256 Tabasaran
    0.21486180 Makrani
    0.21528932 Sindhi
    0.21850423 Burusho
    0.22160457 Iranian_Bandari
    0.22379317 Chechen
    0.22448615 Gujar_India
    0.22747033 Iranian_Mazandarani
    0.22908859 Ingushian
    0.23038834 Parsi_Pakistan
    0.23050044 North_Ossetian
    0.23180021 Balkar
    0.23195245 Parsi_India
    0.23311042 Brahmin_Gujarat
    0.23510630 Karachay
    0.23624207 Circassian
    0.23647145 Ossetian
    0.23671363 Cherkes
    0.23721184 Kumyk
    0.23788141 Azeri_Dagestan
    0.23846201 Abazin
    0.23929889 Kabardin
    0.24001136 Iranian_Fars
    0.24025677 Iranian_Zoroastrian
    0.24077765 Adygei
    0.24139574 Iranian_Persian
    0.24263198 Iranian_Seyyed
    0.24788344 Iran_Turkmen
    0.24877597 Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh
    0.25098887 Abkhasian
    0.25104966 Talysh_Azerbaijan
    0.25137247 Iranian_Lor
    0.25466004 Zaza_Dersim
    0.25565172 Ezid
    0.25582893 Azeri_Turkey
    0.25586761 Azeri
    0.25699985 Kurdish
    0.25946316 Turkmen
    0.25951664 Kshatriya
    0.26046334 Georgian_Imer
    0.26140727 Syrian_Kurd
    0.26288841 Brahmin_West_Bengal
    0.26412030 Besermyan
    0.26423809 Turkish_South
    0.26470773 Turkmen_Uzbekistan
    0.26494540 Turkish_East
    0.26505500 Roma_Balkans
    0.26526836 Brahmin_Tamil_Nadu
    0.26541267 Udmurt
    0.26628290 Iyer
    0.26763202 Turkish_North
    0.27041735 Turkish_Northwest
    0.27042206 Turkish_Adana
    0.27058548 Turkish_Balikesir
    0.27149441 Turkish_Central
    0.27292207 Tatar_Kazan
    0.27318168 Turkish_Southwest
    0.27401741 Turkish_B
    0.27451940 Turkish_Istanbul
    0.27478507 Roma_Porto
    0.27479352 Turkish_Aydin
    0.27519841 Turkish_Kayseri
    0.27604565 Georgian_Laz
    0.27642244 Gujarati
    0.27738179 Roma_Granada
    0.27822494 Komi
    0.27906142 Roma_Bilbao
    0.27950202 Bahun
    0.27986950 Tatar_Lipka
    0.27998955 Tatar_Mishar
    0.28158259 Armenian_Hemsheni
    0.28297682 Kanjar
    Last edited by kamil154; 06-28-2021 at 04:20 AM.
    Mehrgarh v1.

    sample: kamil154
    distance: 2.17
    Sistano-Turanian Proto-Urbanist (LCA): 35.2
    South Asian HG (MP): 23.6
    Proto-Indo-Iranian (MLBA): 18
    Proto-East Iranic (EBA): 14.6
    Pamir Knot HG (EM): 8.6

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  14. #208
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    Another observation I have been seeing is that SIS BA1 once subtracted for AASI is identical to the Bustan/Parkhai/Anau En Eneolithic Central Asian cluster. All of these model elementally as roughly 73% Ganj Dareh N, 13-15% CHG, 5-6% Barcin N, 1-2%, Tyumen/Karelia HG.

    The problem with using SIS BA2/BA3 to create an IVC precursor ghost is that AASI-rich pops are already replete with WSHG. Once you add a whole bunch of WSHG onto a CHG shifited pop the two pretty much cancel each other out (since it is essentially a repeat scenario of how Iran N was formed) and get picked up as Ganj Dareh.

    SIS BA1(sans AASI)/Bustan/Anau/Parkhai En is probably the best singularly representative IVC/BMAC precursor ancestry especially since the two profiles repeat themselves in both Sistan and Turan in the late Chl and BA a few hundred years apart. I doubt that the non SAHG admixture in SISBA2/3 was fundamentally different from SIS BA1 (even in terms of CHG shift) and SIS BA1 was probably not a time-traveling Turanian tourist Sistan. It might well be representative of what the core of Sistan/Turan IVC/BMAC precursor ancestry was like. The mature phase of IVC/BMAC can by and large be modelled as various shades of dilution of this precursor ancestry by SAHG/Plateau Iranian influence respectively.
    Last edited by kamil154; 06-28-2021 at 06:02 AM.
    Mehrgarh v1.

    sample: kamil154
    distance: 2.17
    Sistano-Turanian Proto-Urbanist (LCA): 35.2
    South Asian HG (MP): 23.6
    Proto-Indo-Iranian (MLBA): 18
    Proto-East Iranic (EBA): 14.6
    Pamir Knot HG (EM): 8.6

  15. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamil154 View Post
    Another observation I have been seeing is that SIS BA1 once subtracted for AASI is identical to the Bustan/Parkhai/Anau En Eneolithic Central Asian cluster. All of these model elementally as roughly 73% Ganj Dareh N, 13-15% CHG, 5-6% Barcin N, 1-2%, Tyumen/Karelia HG.

    The problem with using SIS BA2/BA3 to create an IVC precursor ghost is that AASI-rich pops are already replete with WSHG. Once you add a whole bunch of WSHG onto a CHG shifited pop the two pretty much cancel each other out (since it is essentially a repeat scenario of how Iran N was formed) and get picked up as Ganj Dareh.

    SIS BA1(sans AASI)/Bustan/Anau/Parkhai En is probably the best singularly representative IVC/BMAC precursor ancestry especially since the two profiles repeat themselves in both Sistan and Turan in the late Chl and BA a few hundred years apart. I doubt that the non SAHG admixture in SISBA2/3 was fundamentally different from SIS BA1 (even in terms of CHG shift) and SIS BA1 was probably not a time-traveling Turanian tourist Sistan. It might well be representative of what the core of Sistan/Turan IVC/BMAC precursor ancestry was like. The mature phase of IVC/BMAC can by and large be modelled as various shades of dilution of this precursor ancestry by SAHG/Plateau Iranian influence respectively.
    When trying to extract a South Asian HG like signal from Bustan BAo2 or Katelai LBA, I am always left with WSHG or AG3 like signal + Dzdzuana like signal in addition to roughly 55% NW AASI. Narasimhan et al attributed the admixture in Sarazm to the Kelteminar culture predating influx from Hissar. But another issue is that Narasimhan used Ganj Dareh to even model Khvalynsk which is CHG derived. So it's hard to distinguish these two signals apart in Eneolithic Central Asia preSteppe. It's possible predominantly WSHG+Dzadzuana like population existed with maximum admixture around transoxiana + Pamir and on a gradient with additional ASI like admixture further South in Afghanistan and North West Pakistan Pre Gandharan Grave Culture.
    Last edited by Kapisa; 06-28-2021 at 06:18 AM.
     

    Target: Kapisa_scaled
    Distance: 1.9097% / 0.01909703
    45.4 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2_I8728
    21.2 TJK_Sarazm_En
    17.0 KAZ_Ak_Moustafa_MLBA1
    7.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    6.4 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
    2.4 CHN_Upper_Yellow_River_LN

    Target: Kapisa_dad_scaled
    Distance: 2.1794% / 0.02179440
    43.8 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2_I8728
    19.8 KAZ_Ak_Moustafa_MLBA1
    15.8 TJK_Sarazm_En
    13.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    4.8 TUR_Barcin_N
    2.2 CHN_Upper_Yellow_River_LN
    0.4 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N


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  17. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kapisa View Post
    When trying to extract a South Asian HG like signal from Bustan BAo2 or Katelai LBA, I am always left with WSHG or AG3 like signal + Dzdzuana like signal in addition to roughly 55% NW AASI. Narasimhan et al attributed the admixture in Sarazm to the Kelteminar culture predating influx from Hissar. It's possible predominantly WSHG+Dzadzuana like population existed with maximum admixture around transoxiana + Pamir and on a gradient with additional ASI like admixture further South in Afghanistan and North West Pakistan Pre Gandharan Grave Culture.
    Also Aigyrzhgal with Steppe MBA subtracted is a more WSHG shifted version of Sarazm.

    I've been working of a new model for over a month now that will be accessible on GenoPlot's nMonte Runner. It will not be a traditional admixture calculator but rather a Deep Ancestral Vector Estimation Tool for S/C Asians, named "Mehrgarh v1." Based on my PKHG Ghost it seems to be roughly 63% Dzudzuana HG, 37% WSHG.

    The ratio of PKHG to AASI (Pre-Neolithic ancestry) in Kalash is 45% PKHG, 55% AASI. In SPGT it was roughly 25% PKHG to 75% AASI. And in Kerala Tribals it ranges between 9-12% PKHG to 88-91% AASI.
    Last edited by kamil154; 06-28-2021 at 06:42 AM.
    Mehrgarh v1.

    sample: kamil154
    distance: 2.17
    Sistano-Turanian Proto-Urbanist (LCA): 35.2
    South Asian HG (MP): 23.6
    Proto-Indo-Iranian (MLBA): 18
    Proto-East Iranic (EBA): 14.6
    Pamir Knot HG (EM): 8.6

  18. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to kamil154 For This Useful Post:

     ESPLover4 (06-28-2021),  laltota (07-06-2021),  Sapporo (06-28-2021)

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