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Thread: What were Y-lineages of the Illyrians of Italy

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    What were Y-lineages of the Illyrians of Italy

    We are already aware of Messapics and such. But what about the Illyrians that, according to Leonard Robert Palmer, assimilated into the east italics and oscans. He even says something interesting about Illyrian invasion possibly pushing the Latins out of their settlements in Po Basin into Latium. Po Basin has higher J2b2-L283 and EV13, so I guess these two are most probably Illyrian related.


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    This matches the results of the 2018 Italian Y-dna study:


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    The collapse of the Terramare Culture of the Po river basin likely occurred due to a combination of incoming Urnfelders and/or climate change. Nothing that I've ever read attributes this to anything from across the Adriatic.
    Last edited by R.Rocca; 07-17-2019 at 06:37 PM.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    We are already aware of Messapics and such. But what about the Illyrians that, according to Leonard Robert Palmer, assimilated into the east italics and oscans. He even says something interesting about Illyrian invasion possibly pushing the Latins out of their settlements in Po Basin into Latium. Po Basin has higher J2b2-L283 and EV13, so I guess these two are most probably Illyrian related.

    I think it's a bit early to know exactly who had Illiryan origins in Italy during the Iron age, apart from those who were called Messapi in south eastern Italy. For these, they have several inscriptions in their own language.

    But there must have been others.

    In the Iguvine tablets, from example, some Umbrians from Gubbio, central Italy, wrote who were their enemies:

    16 - akeřuniamem: enumek: etuřstamu: tuta tařinate: trifu:
    17 - tařinate: turskum: naharkum: numem: iapuzkum: numem:

    They were the Tadinate nation (tuta tařinate), the Etruscans (turskum), the Naharci (Umbri or Sabines from Terni, a bit south), and these "iapuzkum" which sounds very Illyrian. There were some Illyrian tribes with a nearly identical name, if I'm not mistaken (Iapydes?). They don't seem to know who were these iapuzkum but they must have not lived far away.

    EDIT: do they have actual Illyrian inscriptions or just glosses by Greek and Latin authors?
    Last edited by patrizio22; 07-20-2019 at 01:50 PM.

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    there are very many illyrian names going from Noricum ( east austria ) into north italy in the early iron age

    below is one page of many of some of these names



    clearly the Hallstatt culture ( a mix of celtic and illyrian ) began to stop illyrian influence in Italy ................the furthest inland modern town in Italy I have found which was a Illyrian-venetic mix was Oderzo


    Last edited by vettor; 07-19-2019 at 07:11 PM.


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    There you go, you've got y hgs from that paper you mentioned. There are samples from Apulia, where the Iapyges lived, but the most southern samples of Apulia are from a Greek area.
    Most of the Adriatic coast is missing apart from Apulia, which is confusing.

    the percentage of E-V13 seems higher in some areas of northern Italy than in Apulia in this map, even though in these areas E1b as a whole is lower than in Apulia. And yes, the percentage of J2b-M241 seems higher in some areas of northern Italy than in Apulia, even though J2 as a whole in these northern areas is much lower than in Apulia. But this is likely due to later migrations in Apulia. So, there was DNA from the Balkans in northern Italy.

    The map is from the same paper you mentioned. It's not open access, I don't know what people here think about it:

    Reconstructing the genetic history of Italians: new insights from a male (Y-chromosome) perspective, by Grugni, Raveani, Mattioli, et al.

    grugni raveani mattioli et al.png
    Last edited by patrizio22; 07-22-2019 at 08:47 AM. Reason: mistake

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrizio22 View Post
    I think it's a bit early to know exactly who had Illiryan origins in Italy during the Iron age, apart from those who were called Messapi in south eastern Italy. For these, they have several inscriptions in their own language.

    But there must have been others.

    In the Iguvine tablets, from example, some Umbrians from Gubbio, central Italy, wrote who were their enemies:

    16 - akeřuniamem: enumek: etuřstamu: tuta tařinate: trifu:
    17 - tařinate: turskum: naharkum: numem: iapuzkum: numem:

    They were the Tadinate nation (tuta tařinate), the Etruscans (turskum), the Naharci (Umbri or Sabines from Terni, a bit south), and these "iapuzkum" which sounds very Illyrian. There were some Illyrian tribes with a nearly identical name, if I'm not mistaken (Iapydes?). They don't seem to know who were these iapuzkum but they must have not lived far away.

    EDIT: do they have actual Illyrian inscriptions or just glosses by Greek and Latin authors?
    Iapuzkum seems euzkera, because it is very similar to guipuzkoanos, (inhabitants of Guipuzkoa, one of the three Basque-Spanish provinces). With this I do not mean that the Iguvine tablets speak of a Basque invasion, simply to note the phonetic similarity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    there are very many illyrian names going from Noricum ( east austria ) into north italy in the early iron age

    below is one page of many of some of these names



    clearly the Hallstatt culture ( a mix of celtic and illyrian ) began to stop illyrian influence in Italy ................the furthest inland modern town in Italy I have found which was a Illyrian-venetic mix was Oderzo


    Apparently even the Umbrii, Etruscans and Greeks pushed the Liburnians away from Italy, so that they retreated to their ethnic territory. These Liburnians dominated the Adriatic sea before the arrival of the Greeks and must have had many places along the Adriatic coast of Italy. These were called "Illyrians" like those of Albania (The Messapi or Iapyges of Apulia apparently had also Albanian origins).

    In this text from wikipedia they talk about the Italian territories the Liburnians lost to the Greeks of Siracusa, from Sicily:

    "The first account of the Liburni comes from Periplus or Coastal passage, an ancient Greek text of the mid 4th century BC.[5]

    The fall of Liburnian domination in the Adriatic Sea and their final retreat to their ethnic region (Liburnia) were caused by the military and political activities of Dionysius the Elder of Syracuse (406 – 367 BC). The imperial power base of this Syracusan tyrant stemmed from a huge naval fleet of 300 tetreras and penteras. After he ended Carthaginian authority in Sicily, he turned against the Etruscans. He made use of the Celtic invasion of Italy, and the Celts became his allies in the Italian peninsula (386 - 385 BC). This alliance was crucial for his politics, then focusing on the Adriatic Sea, where the Liburnians still dominated. In light of this strategy, he established a few Syracusan colonies on the coasts of the Adriatic Sea: Adria at the mouth of Po river and Ancona at the western Adriatic coast, Issa on the outermost island of the central Adriatic archipelago (island of Vis) and others. Meanwhile, in 385-384 BC he helped colonists from the Greek island of Paros to establish Pharos (Starigrad) colony on the Liburnian island of Hvar, thus taking control of the important points and navigable routes in the southern, central and northern Adriatic.

    This caused a simultaneous Liburnian resistance on both coasts, whether in their ethnic domain or on the western coast, where their possessions or interests were in danger. A great naval battle was recorded a year after the establishment of Pharos colony, by a Greek inscription in Pharos (384 – 383 BC) and by the Greek historian Diodorus Siculus (80 – 29 BC), initiated by conflicts between the Greek colonists and the indigenous Hvar islanders, who asked their compatriots for support. 10,000 Liburnians sailed out from their capital Idassa (Zadar), led by the Iadasinoi (people of Zadar), and laid siege to Pharos. The Syracusan fleet positioned in Issa was informed in time, and Greek triremes attacked the siege fleet, taking victory in the end. According to Diodorus, the Greeks killed more than 5,000 and captured 2,000 prisoners, ran down or captured their ships, and burned their weapons in dedication to their god.

    This battle meant the loss of the most important strategic Liburnian positions in the centre of the Adriatic, resulting in their final retreat to their main ethnic region, Liburnia, and their complete departure from the Italic coast, apart from Truentum (nowadays on the border between Marche and Abruzzo). Greek colonization, however, did not extend into Liburnia, which remained strongly held, and Syracusan dominance suddenly diminished upon the death of Dionysius the Elder. The Liburnians recovered and developed piracy to secure navigable routes in the Adriatic, as recorded by Livius for 302 BC.[6]"

    In this text from "Illyrians’ in ancient ethnographic discourse" they talk about the relationship between the Liburnian and the Picenum, in the Marche region. When they talk about Illyrian cultural influence they often talk about the Veneti and Piceni:

    "It is only established, with a reasonable quantity of material evidence, that Liburnia and Picenum on the Italian coast did have close and important Iron Age connections through the islands of the Kvarner gulf. 35 A joint cultural habitus known as the Eastern Adriatic cultural koine existed in the late Bronze Age, and remains visible in the early Iron Age material record, especially in typologies of objects such as fibulae, pottery or jewellery. This koine even included parts of the Italian coast, such as Picenum. However, the unity of the Adriatic koine was increasingly diversifying into distinctive regional types; although it was still visible in the seventh and sixth century archaeological record as far as the central and southern Dalmatian coast"
    Last edited by patrizio22; 07-23-2019 at 06:33 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrizio22 View Post
    Apparently even the Umbrii, Etruscans and Greeks pushed the Liburnians away from Italy, so that they retreated to their ethnic territory. These Liburnians dominated the Adriatic sea before the arrival of the Greeks and must have had many places along the Adriatic coast of Italy. These were called "Illyrians" like those of Albania (The Messapi or Iapyges of Apulia apparently had also Albanian origins).

    In this text from wikipedia they talk about the Italian territories the Liburnians lost to the Greeks of Siracusa, from Sicily:

    "The first account of the Liburni comes from Periplus or Coastal passage, an ancient Greek text of the mid 4th century BC.[5]

    The fall of Liburnian domination in the Adriatic Sea and their final retreat to their ethnic region (Liburnia) were caused by the military and political activities of Dionysius the Elder of Syracuse (406 – 367 BC). The imperial power base of this Syracusan tyrant stemmed from a huge naval fleet of 300 tetreras and penteras. After he ended Carthaginian authority in Sicily, he turned against the Etruscans. He made use of the Celtic invasion of Italy, and the Celts became his allies in the Italian peninsula (386 - 385 BC). This alliance was crucial for his politics, then focusing on the Adriatic Sea, where the Liburnians still dominated. In light of this strategy, he established a few Syracusan colonies on the coasts of the Adriatic Sea: Adria at the mouth of Po river and Ancona at the western Adriatic coast, Issa on the outermost island of the central Adriatic archipelago (island of Vis) and others. Meanwhile, in 385-384 BC he helped colonists from the Greek island of Paros to establish Pharos (Starigrad) colony on the Liburnian island of Hvar, thus taking control of the important points and navigable routes in the southern, central and northern Adriatic.

    This caused a simultaneous Liburnian resistance on both coasts, whether in their ethnic domain or on the western coast, where their possessions or interests were in danger. A great naval battle was recorded a year after the establishment of Pharos colony, by a Greek inscription in Pharos (384 – 383 BC) and by the Greek historian Diodorus Siculus (80 – 29 BC), initiated by conflicts between the Greek colonists and the indigenous Hvar islanders, who asked their compatriots for support. 10,000 Liburnians sailed out from their capital Idassa (Zadar), led by the Iadasinoi (people of Zadar), and laid siege to Pharos. The Syracusan fleet positioned in Issa was informed in time, and Greek triremes attacked the siege fleet, taking victory in the end. According to Diodorus, the Greeks killed more than 5,000 and captured 2,000 prisoners, ran down or captured their ships, and burned their weapons in dedication to their god.

    This battle meant the loss of the most important strategic Liburnian positions in the centre of the Adriatic, resulting in their final retreat to their main ethnic region, Liburnia, and their complete departure from the Italic coast, apart from Truentum (nowadays on the border between Marche and Abruzzo). Greek colonization, however, did not extend into Liburnia, which remained strongly held, and Syracusan dominance suddenly diminished upon the death of Dionysius the Elder. The Liburnians recovered and developed piracy to secure navigable routes in the Adriatic, as recorded by Livius for 302 BC.[6]"

    In this text from "Illyrians’ in ancient ethnographic discourse" they talk about the relationship between the Liburnian and the Picenum, in the Marche region. When they talk about Illyrian cultural influence they often talk about the Veneti and Piceni:

    "It is only established, with a reasonable quantity of material evidence, that Liburnia and Picenum on the Italian coast did have close and important Iron Age connections through the islands of the Kvarner gulf. 35 A joint cultural habitus known as the Eastern Adriatic cultural koine existed in the late Bronze Age, and remains visible in the early Iron Age material record, especially in typologies of objects such as fibulae, pottery or jewellery. This koine even included parts of the Italian coast, such as Picenum. However, the unity of the Adriatic koine was increasingly diversifying into distinctive regional types; although it was still visible in the seventh and sixth century archaeological record as far as the central and southern Dalmatian coast"

    Iapyges are Iapodes , same people.....their origin in modern inland north croatia ..........they lived inland of of Liburnians in ancient times. The Liburnians planted their "allies" the Iapyges in modern Foggia and they moved down /colonisied the rest of the heal of Italy over time

    The Liburnians ruled all the adriatic sea up to corfu .
    The Corinthian greeks took Corfu from the Liburnians in 700BC.
    The Corinthians took modern ancona as well.

    Spartans took the Po delta also for a short period.

    North Picene is a non umbrian .....liburnian colony....while south picene is an umbrian race....that is why they spoke a different ancient language.

    The messapics are the minor group of the 3 Iapodes/Iapyges tribes ......the least in number

    One will never find any Illyrian text, but will find dalmatian, liburnian, Iapodes etc texts because the Romans where correct in their census of the area known as illyricum , ...............the term illyrian is the same as saying iberian, scandinavian or british , it is a geographical term

    We need to wait another year for the 47 skeletons they recently found in liburnians lands recently and find out who they where

    I agree on most of what you state


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    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-L22 ydna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtdna

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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    Iapyges are Iapodes , same people.....their origin in modern inland north croatia ..........they lived inland of of Liburnians in ancient times. The Liburnians planted their "allies" the Iapyges in modern Foggia and they moved down /colonisied the rest of the heal of Italy over time

    The Liburnians ruled all the adriatic sea up to corfu .
    The Corinthian greeks took Corfu from the Liburnians in 700BC.
    The Corinthians took modern ancona as well.

    Spartans took the Po delta also for a short period.

    North Picene is a non umbrian .....liburnian colony....while south picene is an umbrian race....that is why they spoke a different ancient language.

    The messapics are the minor group of the 3 Iapodes/Iapyges tribes ......the least in number

    One will never find any Illyrian text, but will find dalmatian, liburnian, Iapodes etc texts because the Romans where correct in their census of the area known as illyricum , ...............the term illyrian is the same as saying iberian, scandinavian or british , it is a geographical term

    We need to wait another year for the 47 skeletons they recently found in liburnians lands recently and find out who they where

    I agree on most of what you state
    The samples are coming from the Liburnian necropolis of Nadin-Gradina...iron-age period


    The analyzed skeletal material belongs to Liburnian culture and could be dated to early Iron Age, from 9th to 6th century B.C. The sample consists of a minimum number of 37 individuals, 7 children and 30 adults.
    Last edited by vettor; 07-24-2019 at 02:44 AM.


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    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-L22 ydna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtdna

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