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Thread: What were Y-lineages of the Illyrians of Italy

  1. #11
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    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...e_Burial_Mound


    Interesting that the daunian tribe , the main tribe of the messapic have a imported wares trade with the Liburnians.....whose neighbours are also associated with these Daunians


    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+ )


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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by patrizio22 View Post
    There you go, you've got y hgs from that paper you mentioned. There are samples from Apulia, where the Iapyges lived, but the most southern samples of Apulia are from a Greek area.
    Most of the Adriatic coast is missing apart from Apulia, which is confusing.

    the percentage of E-V13 seems higher in some areas of northern Italy than in Apulia in this map, even though in these areas E1b as a whole is lower than in Apulia. And yes, the percentage of J2b-M241 seems higher in some areas of northern Italy than in Apulia, even though J2 as a whole in these northern areas is much lower than in Apulia. But this is likely due to later migrations in Apulia. So, there was DNA from the Balkans in northern Italy.

    The map is from the same paper you mentioned. It's not open access, I don't know what people here think about it:

    Reconstructing the genetic history of Italians: new insights from a male (Y-chromosome) perspective, by Grugni, Raveani, Mattioli, et al.

    Attachment 31942
    Regarding the E-V13 in the North vs E-V13 in the south. Could it make sense that the E-V13 up north is E-V13-CTS5856, which people have hypothesized left the Balkans towards Germany and then down into Italy vs. the E-V13-PH1246 folks that stayed in the Balkans and possibly came across the Adriatic? I know funds and DNA quality are the reason, but I really wish they would go a bit deeper than just E-V13 on some of these older samples...
    anyways, Im invested in all things E-V13 so I thought I would throw that out there
    distance%=4.6465"
    Barcin_N,47.2
    Yamnaya_Samara,41.4
    WHG,10.6
    Ethiopia_4500BP,0.8


    E-V13 => E-PH1246 => E-BY14160
    Antonio Reale born circa 1710, Ciminą (RC) Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by digital_noise View Post
    Regarding the E-V13 in the North vs E-V13 in the south. Could it make sense that the E-V13 up north is E-V13-CTS5856, which people have hypothesized left the Balkans towards Germany and then down into Italy vs. the E-V13-PH1246 folks that stayed in the Balkans and possibly came across the Adriatic? I know funds and DNA quality are the reason, but I really wish they would go a bit deeper than just E-V13 on some of these older samples...
    anyways, Im invested in all things E-V13 so I thought I would throw that out there

    what about the E in this project .......alpine

    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults


    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+ )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-L22 ydna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtdna

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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    what about the E in this project .......alpine

    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults
    yes, all of them are CTS5856, so based on my previous thoughts, it could possibly explain why they are 5856 and not PH1246..Of course, I'm just thinking out loud. I get excited whenever anything E-V13 pops up, lol
    distance%=4.6465"
    Barcin_N,47.2
    Yamnaya_Samara,41.4
    WHG,10.6
    Ethiopia_4500BP,0.8


    E-V13 => E-PH1246 => E-BY14160
    Antonio Reale born circa 1710, Ciminą (RC) Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by digital_noise View Post
    yes, all of them are CTS5856, so based on my previous thoughts, it could possibly explain why they are 5856 and not PH1246..Of course, I'm just thinking out loud. I get excited whenever anything E-V13 pops up, lol
    As for E-V13, it doesn't get better than this table below, I think. No mention of subclades, though.

    Boattini et al. Uniparental Markers in Italy Reveal a Sex-Biased Genetic Structure and Different Historical Strata

    boattini et al 2013 1.png

    boattini et al 2013 2.png
    Last edited by patrizio22; 07-26-2019 at 03:19 PM.

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    Thats great, thank you Patrizio. Out f curiosity, has anyone ever corresponded with the authors of these papers? Im wondering if they have any info or clarity on the subject matter regarding subclades and possible origins
    distance%=4.6465"
    Barcin_N,47.2
    Yamnaya_Samara,41.4
    WHG,10.6
    Ethiopia_4500BP,0.8


    E-V13 => E-PH1246 => E-BY14160
    Antonio Reale born circa 1710, Ciminą (RC) Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    This matches the results of the 2018 Italian Y-dna study:

    The quotes in the image here are from the same study you guys are discussing. The study says the j2b2-l283 /ev13 suggests origin from balkans not other way around. Only illyrians are recorded as crossing adriatic so they are the only balkan candidate (hence "illyrian" in brackets).

    If someone could contact authors for more info that would be great. This is quite an important paper but overlooked as nobody wants to know about illyrians. Only magna grecia seems to attract attention. This aplies also to ev13.

  13. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    The quotes in the image here are from the same study you guys are discussing. The study says the j2b2-l283 /ev13 suggests origin from balkans not other way around. Only illyrians are recorded as crossing adriatic so they are the only balkan candidate (hence "illyrian" in brackets).

    If someone could contact authors for more info that would be great. This is quite an important paper but overlooked as nobody wants to know about illyrians. Only magna grecia seems to attract attention. This aplies also to ev13.
    The adriatic was a "illyrian" - Liburnian sea in the early iron age, until the corinthian greeks arrived circa 750BC, they took Corfu from the Liburnians and also created towns in southern Montenegro, Albania and NW Greece.
    You never hear of Umbri, Venetic or Dalmatian ships ever
    The challenge for liburnians was the corintian Greeks in the south part of the Adriatic sea and later Rome circa 200BC


    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+ )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-L22 ydna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtdna

  14. #19
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    According to Pierpaolo Di Carlo, the archaeology and material context of the Novilara Stele with the North Picene language points to it having trans-adriatic origin, aka groups known as "Illyrian". The relation to daunian steles (messapic speakers) and liburnian boats (unclear if liburnian was venetic-like or northern "illyric" on spectrum with messapic).
    There is also genetic evidence that this author was not aware of. From 2018 Y-dna study of Italians, populations of Apulia and Po valley were discovered to have elevated J2b/Ev13. These are paleobalkan paternal lineages comparatively absent in Slavs. J2b particularly is a specifically Albanian lineage with it being almost absent in Greeks also, and most concentrated in north-west Gheg Albanians. J2b has been discovered in a 3500 year old tumuli in croatian coast, meaning it is a confirmed paleo-balkan adriatic lineage (~30% of Albanian men belong to this lineage).
    What this means in layman terms is that there are more Italians in Po valley and Apulia than any other region of Italy, that share the same male ancestor as 60% of Albanians within 2000-3000 years.
    While the elevation in Apulia is accounted for by the Messapic linguistic connection/affinities to Albanian, there is as of yet no such explanation for the Po Valley genetic relation. The north picene language stele is discovered at the mouth of the po valley.
    The archaeological and material culture of the North Picene elevates the probability that it has a connection with Messapics or Liburnians. In conjuction with the Y-dna relations, this elevated probability is compounded upon.
    LINK: https://www.academia.edu/2003399/Len...esto_culturale

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