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Thread: What were Y-lineages of the Illyrians of Italy

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Iapygians


    The more you look at Iapygian culture (Daunii, Messapii, Peucetii) the more a culture inherently non-Greek, non-Italic, non-Celtic becomes apparant and we see the uniquely Illyrian culture appear which is harder to detect in other areas where neighbouring influences tend to swamp it.

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  3. #22
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    So I sent an email to Sarno, haven’t heard back. Doubt I will, but I will also try a couple more.
    distance%=4.6465"
    Barcin_N,47.2
    Yamnaya_Samara,41.4
    WHG,10.6
    Ethiopia_4500BP,0.8


    E-V13 => E-PH1246 => E-BY14160
    Antonio Reale born circa 1710, Ciminą (RC) Italy

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  5. #23
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    What I can say is that on an autosomal and y-dna level we should not expect the "Balkan" (RE: increased Steppe/Slavic-like) shift of modern Apulians to be attributable to these Illyrians.

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    These Veneti similarities are possibly related to this.

    In Veneti art, we see priestesses wearing a dress similar to the Albanian Xhubleta, which Baron Franz Nopcsa believed was related to the Minoan priestess dress.

    The Ancient Veneti people of Italy spoke an isolate language somewhere in between the Illyrian & Italo-Celtic IE branch.









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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    These Veneti similarities are possibly related to this.

    In Veneti art, we see priestesses wearing a dress similar to the Albanian Xhubleta, which Baron Franz Nopcsa believed was related to the Minoan priestess dress.

    The Ancient Veneti people of Italy spoke an isolate language somewhere in between the Illyrian & Italo-Celtic IE branch.








    As per oxford archeologist, elsa perego.....the veneti have only been in NE italy from 1150bc.....the indigenous people are the Euganei.
    Roman historian Cato , states, that they are a numerous tribe with 34 towns in that area.
    Venetic people are stated as coming to italy at that time from palaic people in north anatolia....they came via land along the danube river


    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+ )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-L22 ydna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtdna

  9. #26
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    E-CTS1273 being Central/East Balkan shifted is sometimes used to imply that this must mean it was Thracian. I think this is a simplified and inaccurate scenario.

    I agree that it is most likely not a coastal lineage and that it probably was not a common lineage among "Delmato-Pannonians" as (Katicic divides them in his onomastic system.)




    See text:

     


    His onomastic system is very useful but does not necessarily tell us if there were different languages being spoken or different ethnicity.

    I think "delmato-pannonians" and "illyrians proper" were both illyric languages, and one of my reasonings for this is Messapic colonization of Italy, in which we have both delmato-pannonian tribes (iapodes) and dardanian tribes (galabrioi) (which were Illyrian proper according to Katicic's onomastic system).

    Differences in naming conventions can arise from different neighbouring influences, religious notions, etc. In Kosovo during the 80s-90s, Albanians took entirely different names (related to patriotic themes) from other Albanians on the other side of the border, as the Yugoslavian disintegration had a cultural effect. Yet Albanians on other side of the border spoke the exact same language.

    So, Katicics name system is very useful, and is very indicative at the very least of compact cultural zones / political zones of influence, and at the very most: different ethnicities that spoke different languages.

    I think however, that even if delmato-pannonians were speaking different language to Illyrian's proper, then it was of the same branch, like bulgarian is to slovenian, etc.

    Also, the 2018 grugni paper mentions both elevated J2b and EV13 in zones of Illyrian colonization, so until we have more higher resolution knowledge, its possible that E-CTS1273 clades were also present in the east-west adriatic movements.

    The distribution of E-CTS1273 all over albanian speaking peoples, both Tosk & Gege to me makes sense more that it belonged to the "Illyrian-proper" complex, while J2b2-L283 and PH1246 which have a North-West distribution among Albanian people most likely belonged to the "Delmato-Pannonian" complex. As I said before, I think they spoke either the same language or a very close one, but they were part of a different geographic and cultural complex.

    So when the inland contrast of E-CTS1273 is mentioned, it is done in this simplified manner to skip the "Illyrian-Proper" speakers and go straight from the coast to Thracians, which I think doesn't hold up. Given that there seems to have been a wedge in between the Thracians and delmato-pannonians, as testified by the different onomastic system, then we should expect to see this reflected culturally and possibly with respect to lineages. The best candidate for this is E-CTS1237

    Also with respect to the transportation of basal EV13 clades to the east, Balkan Mysians, Dardanians, and Brygians were in Troy around the Trojan war which is dated around 1300-1200 BC, and the archaeological culture shows movement of material around this time from western balkans and even hungary to troy, so its possible movements of early E-CTS1273 clades to the east occurred even at this time or earlier, from when Dardanus himself founded the Trojan lineage according to myths (probably just a legendary remnant of some dardanian migration to troy).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    E-CTS1273 being Central/East Balkan shifted is sometimes used to imply that this must mean it was Thracian. I think this is a simplified and inaccurate scenario.

    I agree that it is most likely not a coastal lineage and that it probably was not a common lineage among "Delmato-Pannonians" as (Katicic divides them in his onomastic system.)




    See text:

     


    His onomastic system is very useful but does not necessarily tell us if there were different languages being spoken or different ethnicity.

    I think "delmato-pannonians" and "illyrians proper" were both illyric languages, and one of my reasonings for this is Messapic colonization of Italy, in which we have both delmato-pannonian tribes (iapodes) and dardanian tribes (galabrioi) (which were Illyrian proper according to Katicic's onomastic system).

    Differences in naming conventions can arise from different neighbouring influences, religious notions, etc. In Kosovo during the 80s-90s, Albanians took entirely different names (related to patriotic themes) from other Albanians on the other side of the border, as the Yugoslavian disintegration had a cultural effect. Yet Albanians on other side of the border spoke the exact same language.

    So, Katicics name system is very useful, and is very indicative at the very least of compact cultural zones / political zones of influence, and at the very most: different ethnicities that spoke different languages.

    I think however, that even if delmato-pannonians were speaking different language to Illyrian's proper, then it was of the same branch, like bulgarian is to slovenian, etc.

    Also, the 2018 grugni paper mentions both elevated J2b and EV13 in zones of Illyrian colonization, so until we have more higher resolution knowledge, its possible that E-CTS1273 clades were also present in the east-west adriatic movements.

    The distribution of E-CTS1273 all over albanian speaking peoples, both Tosk & Gege to me makes sense more that it belonged to the "Illyrian-proper" complex, while J2b2-L283 and PH1246 which have a North-West distribution among Albanian people most likely belonged to the "Delmato-Pannonian" complex. As I said before, I think they spoke either the same language or a very close one, but they were part of a different geographic and cultural complex.

    So when the inland contrast of E-CTS1273 is mentioned, it is done in this simplified manner to skip the "Illyrian-Proper" speakers and go straight from the coast to Thracians, which I think doesn't hold up. Given that there seems to have been a wedge in between the Thracians and delmato-pannonians, as testified by the different onomastic system, then we should expect to see this reflected culturally and possibly with respect to lineages. The best candidate for this is E-CTS1237

    Also with respect to the transportation of basal EV13 clades to the east, Balkan Mysians, Dardanians, and Brygians were in Troy around the Trojan war which is dated around 1300-1200 BC, and the archaeological culture shows movement of material around this time from western balkans and even hungary to troy, so its possible movements of early E-CTS1273 clades to the east occurred even at this time or earlier, from when Dardanus himself founded the Trojan lineage according to myths (probably just a legendary remnant of some dardanian migration to troy).
    The place of origin for E-CTS1273, formerly E-CTS5856, is not yet clear though we can tell that it was someplace in Europe. However it is likely that the MRCA of CTS1273 carriers (and so the vast majority of V13 carriers) lived someplace close to the Carpathians, as it’s pretty clear that this lineage was picked up by IE speakers and expanded with them across Europe. This would mean that certain CTS1273 clades arrived into the Balkans with early (Proto) Illyric speaking groups.

    E-Y30977 (PH1246) so far doesn’t seem to be common among Albanians, it is present but not common. We can assume that both Ghegs and Tosks carry it since so far, within the project, it has been found among a Kosovar (origin from Dushman) and Arbereshe. Both fall under E-Y81468. I believe that Y30977 originated somewhere in the Balkans, likely west, and was assimilated by IE speaking groups later on with their arrival to the Balkans. So unlike CTS1273, I don’t think it took part in IE expansion.
    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

    Mtdna: T1a1l

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    The illyrians and Celtics did not have as close a genetic relationship as the misconception believes. Celtic influence seems to have been more cultural in the north western territories which then moved further south:

    "Specifically, Katicic mentions Emona in Slovenia, and that there are 3 visible layers of anthroponymy here:

    1. East Celtic names which he calls "Noric"
    2. Non-Noric Celtic names from an older Celtic onomastic substratum
    3. The oldest layer: "North-Adriatic" (Venetic, Istrian, Liburnian)
    "

    (from pg 182 of the text i screenshotted in the comment before)

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    Roman historian Strabo on the Iapodes/Iapyges ( north Illyrians who went to Apulia )







    These people ( some ) migrated to apulia Italy ......we know them as Messapii , Daunii and Peucetii


    .................................................. .............

    on Illyrian Noricum



    Strabo states, the Illyrians where next to the Vindelici and Rhaeti tribes ...Basically Noricum .............

    on another matter, strange how later ( 100AD ) the Romans placed Vindelici tribe under the Rhaeti as a secondry tribe of rhaetic people
    Last edited by vettor; 06-23-2020 at 06:43 PM.


    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+ )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-L22 ydna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtdna

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    I see E and J yDNA lines being mentioned a lot here. Does R1b/R1a have any role among the Illyrians of Italy? And what about Illyrians as a whole/outside of Italy?

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