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Thread: Population genomics of the Viking world (bioxiv, 2019, Copenhagen)

  1. #311
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    But I told you that slave is not a native English word and not even a Germanic word. It is derived from Byzantine Greek or Latin.

    If the main source of slaves for the Vikings was south of the Baltic Sea, then their word for slave would be "wend" rather than thrall.

    Wends is how Germanic people called their Slavic-speaking neighbours.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 07-19-2019 at 04:49 PM.

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  3. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    But I told you that slave is not a native English word and not even a Germanic word. It is derived from Byzantine Greek or Latin . . .
    It's ultimately derived from the word Slav.

    slave (n.)

    late 13c., "person who is the chattel or property of another," from Old French esclave (13c.), from Medieval Latin Sclavus "slave" (source also of Italian schiavo, French esclave, Spanish esclavo), originally "Slav" (see Slav); so used in this secondary sense because of the many Slavs sold into slavery by conquering peoples.
    Slave

    I did not say that was the result of the Viking trade in Wends. I merely pointed it out to show that the Slavs were certainly not so powerful that they were immune to slavery.

    The fact that the Vikings took slaves from among the peoples of the Baltic coast is well known.
     


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  5. #313
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    so used in this secondary sense because of the many Slavs sold into slavery by conquering peoples.
    Yes, sold into slavery by the Byzantines - not by Vikings.

    Although an alternative explanation is that the Proto-Slavs themselves enslaved native population of the Balkans and then incorporated those slaves into their ranks - thus slaves (ex-Roman citizens) literally became Slavs. It also matches quite well with autosomal DNA of Balkan Slavs (it is quite obvious that ethnic groups such as Serbs, Montenegrins and Macedonians have a lot of native Balkan ancestry, they are not straight up Belarusians transplanted into Southern Europe).

    Maurice, "Strategikon", 11, 4 - wrote:

    "The Sclavenes and the Antes (...) unlike other peoples, do not keep those who are in captivity among them in perpetual slavery, but they set a definite period of time for them, after which they give them the choice: either, when they so desire, to return to their own homes if they purchase their freedom, or to stay among them as free people and friends."

    ^^^
    So yes, Balkan Slavic societies were literally formed from slaves.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 07-19-2019 at 05:19 PM.

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  7. #314
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    Please understand. I'm not saying the word Slav means slave. I merely pointed out the fact that the English word slave is derived from Slav.

    I'm just trying to point out the pretty obvious flaw in the idea that the Slavs were so powerful that the Vikings couldn't take slaves from among them.

    I also think it is pretty hypocritical and stupid to see an R1b-L21 with a lot of UK dna in Viking Age Scandinavia as a thrall but to then turn around and try to make a Viking warrior out of an R1a-M417 with a lot of Polish dna.
     


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    Red Hair Carrier:
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    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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  9. #315
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    If they took so many Slavic slaves then why is there more British admixture than East European admixture in Scandinavia?*

    Also I never claimed that all those R1b-L21s with UK DNA were thralls, quite the opposite (I claimed they likely moved to Scandinavia as culturally Viking but genetically British people from Orkney).

    You were actually the guy who started talking about foreign thralls shortly after I mentioned that the Viking society enslaved mostly their own locals, as a response to posts discussing whether the R1b-DF27 sample was a thrall.

    =====

    *Note that for example most of Sub-Saharan admixture in modern Middle East is the result of Muslim slave trade, which is a good example showing that historical slavery should be visible in autosomal DNA of modern populations (there are also many West African mtDNA haplogroups in modern Middle East).
    Last edited by Tomenable; 07-19-2019 at 05:39 PM.

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  11. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    If they took so many Slavic slaves then why is there more British admixture than East European admixture in Scandinavia?
    You had Slavic slaves even in Iberia, they served under the Taifa or the Caliphate. At least one - Sabur - even got to be the founder of a Taifa himself, the Taifa of Badajoz which encompassed a good chunk of modern Portugal in its very early years. The fact that they were so widespread probably helped
    YDNA - E-Y31991>PF4428>Y134097>Y168273 (probably Scythian-Sarmatian). Domingos Rodrigues, b. circa 1680 Hidden Content , Viana do Castelo, Portugal
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  13. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    You had Slavic slaves even in Iberia
    That is well-known (and indeed many modern Iberians have some traces of East European admixture in their DNA!) and I already explained that their most likely source were Balkan Slavs captured by the Byzantine Empire.

  14. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    If they took so many Slavic slaves then why is there more British admixture than East European admixture in Scandinavia? . . .
    First off, I'm not sure that's true.

    Secondly, modern Scandinavia and Viking Age Scandinavia are separated by about a thousand years of genomic water under the bridge.

    Thirdly, it's pretty clear the Vikings took a lot of slaves from the Baltic coast. I'm not sure why you can't admit that. They also took slaves in Ireland and the British Isles. That's just what happened.

    Every people had slaves. Every people were slaves.
     


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  16. #319
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    I never claimed they had no slaves at all from these areas. I just claimed most of the thralls were local Scandinavians, that's how that society worked.

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  18. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    I never claimed they had no slaves at all from these areas. I just claimed most of the thralls were local Scandinavians, that's how that society worked.
    Well, let's talk about the thralls who were R1b-U106, I-M253, and R1a-L448 then.

    That ought to make us popular!
     


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    Red Hair Carrier:
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    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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