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Thread: Population genomics of the Viking world (bioxiv, 2019, Copenhagen)

  1. #701
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    None of that says Elp, but you should get a cousin in your maternal grandfather's y line tested.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    None of that says Elp, but you should get a cousin in your maternal grandfather's y line tested.
    Sögel-Wohlde is the kick start of Elp (see if you don't have confidence the remarks of Professor Fokkens, he clearly states that).

    Prof Harry Fokkens (1998):
    ''The northern Netherlands is part of the northern group (NW Germany and Denmark) especially of the Sögeler Kreis characterized by a number of distinctive men's graves. The Drouwen grave is the best known Dutch example.It's remarkable that the Elp culture has never been presented as the immigration of a new group of people. Because clearly this period was a time when a number of new elements made their entry while others disappeared. The disappearance of beakers, the appearance of the Sögel men's graves with the first 'swords', among other things, the fully extended burial posture, under barrows; all the factors have been reason enough in the past to conclude that the Elp culture represented an immigration of Sögel warriors."


    And wiki Elp (Dutch wiki, so google translate)

    The first phase is characterized by burial mounds (1800 - 1200 BC), and is strongly linked to simultaneous burial mounds in northern Germany and Scandinavia, and apparently also related to burial mound culture (1600 - 1200 BC) in Central Europe. During this period, the dead were buried in shallow pits and covered by a low burial mound.

    This phase was followed by a period 1200 to 800 BC. in which the culture came under the influence of Central European urn field culture. The dead were no longer buried, but cremated and buried in urns and low burial mounds. Family cemeteries only occurred in the later phases.
    https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elpcultuur

    Oostwoud R1b U106 is from the same time.
    Last edited by Finn; 08-23-2019 at 06:14 PM.

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  5. #703
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Yeah, Elp, not Kurgan Bell Beaker. I believe Elp is thought to have spread from Scandinavia. Those two skeletons (one male U106 and one female) were stretched out on their backs unlike Kurgan BB burials, and they were later than the neighboring P312 KBB burials.
    OK, I just wondered if the call was refuted but it wasn't. Yes, Elp had some very un-BB cultural traits. But are they scandinavian? Their pottery is called "Kummerkeramik" which describes the poor quality. The supine burials. These look like Vlaardingen culture characteristics to me. But I might be wrong.

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    @Epoch indeed not Scandic but Unetice/Tumulus derived....see remarks of Fokkens and Probst.

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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    OK, I just wondered if the call was refuted but it wasn't. Yes, Elp had some very un-BB cultural traits. But are they scandinavian? Their pottery is called "Kummerkeramik" which describes the poor quality. The supine burials. These look like Vlaardingen culture characteristics to me. But I might be wrong.
    I'm no Elp expert, but I know it extended up into Jutland. It wasn't present in the Netherlands before about 1800 BC, so it had to come from someplace else.

    Finn wants U106 to be Celtic, so he often tries to derive Elp from Unetice, as if that would make Elp Celtic or Proto-Celtic, and since a U106 was found in a likely Elp tumulus, that would constitute a tenuous connection to the tenuously-Celtic Unetice culture. Of course, we already have a U106 in Unetice, but it's later than the U106 in Swedish Battle Axe.

    I think U106 was in the northern sphere of Kurgan Bell Beaker and didn't come south until Kurgan Bell Beaker was done or about done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    I'm no Elp expert, but I know it extended up into Jutland. It wasn't present in the Netherlands before about 1800 BC, so it had to come from someplace else.

    Finn wants U106 to be Celtic, so he often tries to derive Elp from Unetice, as if that would make Elp Celtic or Proto-Celtic, and since a U106 was found in a likely Elp tumulus, that would constitute a tenuous connection to the tenuously-Celtic Unetice culture.

    I think U106 was in the northern sphere of Kurgan Bell Beaker and didn't come south until Kurgan Bell Beaker was done or about done.
    Sad Rms2 you aren't more open for some fairness. When something it brought on the scene what you don't like then you deny and if denial isn't working than you repeat something that I didn't intent in this way. Thas has something villain (IMO), but that's obviously how it works.

    That Celtic thing is not my intention. So cut that crap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Sad Rms2 you aren't more open for some fairness. When something it brought on the scene what you don't like then you deny and if denial isn't working than you repeat something that I didn't intent in this way. Thas has something villain (IMO), but that's obviously how it works.

    That Celtic thing is not my intention. So cut that crap.
    I've read too many of your posts, Finn.

    I'm fair, but being fair doesn't mean agreeing with you even though you have failed to prove your point (whatever it is).

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    I think U106 was in the northern sphere of Kurgan Bell Beaker and didn't come south until Kurgan Bell Beaker was done or about done.
    So Elp is a Nordic Bell Beaker derivative, well than you have something to explain.

    You are really the only one who relates the Elp culture to Nordic Bell Beakers that went to NW Germany and North Dutch.

    Give at least some evidence or sources....

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    I've read too many of your posts, Finn.

    I'm fair, but being fair doesn't mean agreeing with you even though you have failed to prove your point (whatever it is).
    Simply Fokkens en Probst are reliable sources.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    I'm no Elp expert, but I know it extended up into Jutland. It wasn't present in the Netherlands before about 1800 BC, so it had to come from someplace else.

    Finn wants U106 to be Celtic, so he often tries to derive Elp from Unetice, as if that would make Elp Celtic or Proto-Celtic, and since a U106 was found in a likely Elp tumulus, that would constitute a tenuous connection to the tenuously-Celtic Unetice culture. Of course, we already have a U106 in Unetice, but it's later than the U106 in Swedish Battle Axe.

    I think U106 was in the northern sphere of Kurgan Bell Beaker and didn't come south until Kurgan Bell Beaker was done or about done.
    However, autosomically the Elp sample is similar to the West-Frisian BB. I have a bias here, being Dutch, but maybe the Nordic Bronze Age horizon extended to NW Germany and northern Netherlands.

    Archaeology sees Veluwe beakers being ancestral to Barbed Wire culture and Hilversum culture, the latter being assciated with Wessex Culture.

    We need a Dutch, NW German and Danish late neolithic/ early Bronze Age paper, pretty much.

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