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Thread: Population genomics of the Viking world (bioxiv, 2019, Copenhagen)

  1. #1021
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    That's medieval, but known Germanic tribes? I can identify the Germanic tribes the Danes (moving into Danmark). But other examples?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danes_(Germanic_tribe)
    Granary said it the right way already, but I want to add that we actually know that in Copper to Bronze Age times there was still quite some variation and regional differentiation in Scandinavia. Like some Unetice samples appear to be more like modern Scandinavian than individuals from the actual region! Now the question is when and how where this differences levelled, how and from where came the Bronze and later Iron Age technology, how much of this was related to movement of people, even whole tribes, and how does this relate to the modern Scandinavian genetic profile and the appearance, even dominance, of I1+R1b-U106 in the Germanic core region.
    We don't have the knowledge yet and only with genetic results we can obtain it. A large portion of Scandinavia was not inhabited by early Germanics, and which regions became when Germanic is unknown. There could have been remains of earlier people in various places of Scandinavia when the Iron Age Germanics spread. And one of the best candidates is, both because of yDNA-frequencies, physical traits and topography, South Western Norway. So if there was a pre-Germanic people in Scandinavia, unrelated to Uralics and Finns, chances to find their genetic profile surviving in early Bronze Age to an unknown date in the Iron Age are highest in Western Norway.
    There were significant movements of people inside Scandinavia, with additional influences from outside, throughout most of the Iron Age to Viking Age. We know this from historical records and migrations. Don't forget, the Danes themselves expanded or were pushed South, depends on how you interpret it, fairly late. Jutes and Angles moved out to Britain, the Danes in. Or Germanic tribes in Eastern Europe - there is no reason to assume it was any different on the Bronze and Iron Age, even on the contrary, these were regular incidents. Some of the tribes, Germanic or not, which existed on Scandinavia, might no longer exist and left no trace to us but their burials. For all we know, they ould have had a different genetic profile or the same, only testing can make us sure.
    And if there is a movement of people, which spread I1 + R1b-U106 especially with iron and some allied more South Eastern clades, while in Scandinavia, especially its more remote parts like Western Norway, still lived different people, let's say more Bell Beaker-like, this would be like the proof for a Germanic expansion and differential outcomes by provinces. When and how even East Norway and Southern Sweden became Germanic or let's say Proto-Germanic, is completely unknown to us too. If there is a major population replacement, this must be considered and being the best supportive argument for a later Germanicisation, anywhere it took place. Somewhere between the rise of the Nordic Bronze Age and the stable Germanic Iron Age culture. But when and how exactly, I don't know it, and as far as I'm concerned, nobody does, unless some researchers have already the test results at hand.

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  3. #1022
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Granary said it the right way already, but I want to add that we actually know that in Copper to Bronze Age times there was still quite some variation and regional differentiation in Scandinavia. Like some Unetice samples appear to be more like modern Scandinavian than individuals from the actual region! Now the question is when and how where this differences levelled, how and from where came the Bronze and later Iron Age technology, how much of this was related to movement of people, even whole tribes, and how does this relate to the modern Scandinavian genetic profile and the appearance, even dominance, of I1+R1b-U106 in the Germanic core region.
    We don't have the knowledge yet and only with genetic results we can obtain it. A large portion of Scandinavia was not inhabited by early Germanics, and which regions became when Germanic is unknown. There could have been remains of earlier people in various places of Scandinavia when the Iron Age Germanics spread. And one of the best candidates is, both because of yDNA-frequencies, physical traits and topography, South Western Norway. So if there was a pre-Germanic people in Scandinavia, unrelated to Uralics and Finns, chances to find their genetic profile surviving in early Bronze Age to an unknown date in the Iron Age are highest in Western Norway.
    There were significant movements of people inside Scandinavia, with additional influences from outside, throughout most of the Iron Age to Viking Age. We know this from historical records and migrations. Don't forget, the Danes themselves expanded or were pushed South, depends on how you interpret it, fairly late. Jutes and Angles moved out to Britain, the Danes in. Or Germanic tribes in Eastern Europe - there is no reason to assume it was any different on the Bronze and Iron Age, even on the contrary, these were regular incidents. Some of the tribes, Germanic or not, which existed on Scandinavia, might no longer exist and left no trace to us but their burials. For all we know, they ould have had a different genetic profile or the same, only testing can make us sure.
    And if there is a movement of people, which spread I1 + R1b-U106 especially with iron and some allied more South Eastern clades, while in Scandinavia, especially its more remote parts like Western Norway, still lived different people, let's say more Bell Beaker-like, this would be like the proof for a Germanic expansion and differential outcomes by provinces. When and how even East Norway and Southern Sweden became Germanic or let's say Proto-Germanic, is completely unknown to us too. If there is a major population replacement, this must be considered and being the best supportive argument for a later Germanicisation, anywhere it took place. Somewhere between the rise of the Nordic Bronze Age and the stable Germanic Iron Age culture. But when and how exactly, I don't know it, and as far as I'm concerned, nobody does, unless some researchers have already the test results at hand.
    Fascinating. Really enjoy reading your posts. Do you have any recommendation on books to learn more about the Germanic Iron Age and the "Germanicization" of Scandinavia? I'm very interested in understanding the ethnogenesis of Germanic cultures in greater detail. On a sidenote, I want to ask you (also a heads up to evon) if you've read this study (only in pre-print so far) on the genetic structure of Norway? These are all samples from modern Norwegians (the most extensively sampled study done on Norwegians so far), but it seems like it points to a distinctively Norwegian genetic cluster in the Southwest (or more accurately, the Agder-area).

  4. #1023
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    So you're suggesting L21+ origin in Netherlands and then a simultaneous movement NW and SW? Didn't consider that possibility. Seems a bit too "lucky" for me. If enough Norwegian men who are L21+ tested something like a Big Y or equivalent test, it could be sorted awfully quick.
    Yes from the Netherlands/ NW Germany and/or Northern Jutland.

    First of all the Bell Beakers were there in Norway:
    https://www.academia.edu/2464050/Pre...ical_watershed

    The Bell Beaker interaction Netherlands, Jutland....up to Norway?
    The Beaker group in northern Jutland forms an integrated part of the western European Beaker Culture, while western Jutland provided a link between the Lower Rhine area and northern Jutland. The local fine-ware pottery of Beaker derivation reveal links with other Beaker regions in western Europe, most specifically the Veluwe group at the Lower Rhine. Concurrent introduction of metallurgy shows that some people must have crossed cultural boundaries. Danish Beakers are contemporary with the earliest Early Bronze Age (EBA) of the East Group of Bell Beakers in central Europe, and with the floruit of Beaker cultures of the West Group in western Europe. The latter comprise Veluwe and Epi-Maritime in Continental northwestern Europe and the Middle Style Beakers (Style 2) in insular western Europe.

    The interaction between the Beaker groups on the Veluwe Plain and in Jutland must, at least initially, have been quite intensive. All-over ornamented (AOO) and All-over-corded (AOC), and particularly Maritime style beakers are featured, although from a fairly late context and possibly rather of Epi-maritime style, equivalent to the situation in the north of the Netherlands, where Maritime ornamentation continued after it ceased in the central region of Veluwe and were succeeded c. 2300 BC by beakers of the Veluwe and Epi-Maritime style.[24]
    (wiki)

  5. #1024
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Granary said it the right way already, but I want to add that we actually know that in Copper to Bronze Age times there was still quite some variation and regional differentiation in Scandinavia. Like some Unetice samples appear to be more like modern Scandinavian than individuals from the actual region! Now the question is when and how where this differences levelled, how and from where came the Bronze and later Iron Age technology, how much of this was related to movement of people, even whole tribes, and how does this relate to the modern Scandinavian genetic profile and the appearance, even dominance, of I1+R1b-U106 in the Germanic core region.
    We don't have the knowledge yet and only with genetic results we can obtain it. A large portion of Scandinavia was not inhabited by early Germanics, and which regions became when Germanic is unknown. There could have been remains of earlier people in various places of Scandinavia when the Iron Age Germanics spread. And one of the best candidates is, both because of yDNA-frequencies, physical traits and topography, South Western Norway. So if there was a pre-Germanic people in Scandinavia, unrelated to Uralics and Finns, chances to find their genetic profile surviving in early Bronze Age to an unknown date in the Iron Age are highest in Western Norway.
    There were significant movements of people inside Scandinavia, with additional influences from outside, throughout most of the Iron Age to Viking Age. We know this from historical records and migrations. Don't forget, the Danes themselves expanded or were pushed South, depends on how you interpret it, fairly late. Jutes and Angles moved out to Britain, the Danes in. Or Germanic tribes in Eastern Europe - there is no reason to assume it was any different on the Bronze and Iron Age, even on the contrary, these were regular incidents. Some of the tribes, Germanic or not, which existed on Scandinavia, might no longer exist and left no trace to us but their burials. For all we know, they ould have had a different genetic profile or the same, only testing can make us sure.
    And if there is a movement of people, which spread I1 + R1b-U106 especially with iron and some allied more South Eastern clades, while in Scandinavia, especially its more remote parts like Western Norway, still lived different people, let's say more Bell Beaker-like, this would be like the proof for a Germanic expansion and differential outcomes by provinces. When and how even East Norway and Southern Sweden became Germanic or let's say Proto-Germanic, is completely unknown to us too. If there is a major population replacement, this must be considered and being the best supportive argument for a later Germanicisation, anywhere it took place. Somewhere between the rise of the Nordic Bronze Age and the stable Germanic Iron Age culture. But when and how exactly, I don't know it, and as far as I'm concerned, nobody does, unless some researchers have already the test results at hand.
    The 'problem' is that culture and genetics are not always congruent (1:1). You can call the Bronze Age culture proto-Germanic. And iron age Jastorf culture as Germanic. That said this doesn't mean we can identify in Scandinavia groups that are more or less Germanic. May be in case of language but with no sources this is difficult to trace. In genetics we have a kind of specific Germanic drift, but there we see that it's not one size fits all. In the Germanic world there was a kind of diversity....although in some sense related but that's for whole NW Europe c.q. the Celto-Germanic range at stake.

    So
    But when and how exactly, I don't know it, and as far as I'm concerned, nobody does, unless some researchers have already the test results at hand.
    will stay not clear also when the researchers do have the test results!

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