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Thread: Population genomics of the Viking world (bioxiv, 2019, Copenhagen)

  1. #1701
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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    Ask the Dutch guy here, why the Brits still call the West Germanics from Netherlands "Dutch" which sounds same with Daci from Romania, cause is clear they were different people.
    So there were some relations between Dacians (current land of Romania) and West Germanic and North Germanic tribes.
    Dutch is just the same as "Deutsch" and for some reasons, the British became used to calling their closer Low German (Netherlandic/Dutch) speaking neighbours "Dutch" and the rest of the "Deutsche People" German. Its the opposite of the French "Allemagne" and the Serbian "Švabo". Instead of calling the larger unity after a smaller, they called the smaller after the larger and used the ancient term for "Germans". Dacian and Deutsch/Dutch have very different roots. Deutsch/Dutch meant, originally, "belonging to the people/folk":
    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsch_(Etymologie)

    The origins of the word Dutch go back to Proto-Germanic, the ancestor of all Germanic languages, *theudo (meaning "national/popular"); akin to Old Dutch dietsc, Old High German diutsch, Old English şeodisc and Gothic şiuda all meaning "(of) the common (Germanic) people". As the tribes among the Germanic peoples began to differentiate its meaning began to change. The Anglo-Saxons of England for example gradually stopped referring to themselves as şeodisc and instead started to use Englisc, after their tribe. On the continent *theudo evolved into two meanings: Diets (meaning "Dutch (people)" (archaic)[71] and Deutsch (German, meaning "German (people)"). At first the English language used (the contemporary form of) Dutch to refer to any or all of the Germanic speakers on the European mainland (e.g. the Dutch, the Frisians and the Germans). Gradually its meaning shifted to the Germanic people they had most contact with, both because of their geographical proximity, but also because of the rivalry in trade and overseas territories: the people from the Republic of the Netherlands, the Dutch.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_...nym_and_exonym

    Even if there would be a common root, it would be of a rather old, common Indo-European origin.
    Last edited by Riverman; 10-14-2020 at 12:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    It would be a stupid belief. The "Normans" who established a colony in France (for taking your words, while it's far from being a fair description) were Danish, Norwegian and (mostly) Anglo-Scandinavian. Nothing to see with the "Italian" individuals from the study. And as to the "Norman" Sicily, it was not a colony, but only a political dominion and the fable of the genetical Norman influx in Sicily is ... a fable. What do those Italian individuals make in this study? Mystery.
    I'm not so sure we can know until the Y-DNA is subjected to more refined analysis. I'm also not talking about Normandy proper as a colony. I'm talking about the Crusade era influx south through France proper (which required considerable logistical lines) and their role in papal and Italian machinations of that era. There is a good bit of U152/L20 along northern Italy. But whether this is ~IA Celt origin or later influx from Norman influence I think remains TBD. Could be either, or probably more likely some of both, though probably more the former. Both the Lombards and the pope engaged them in the late tenth and early eleventh centuries, and not just in Sicily, but much of south Italy proper.

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    Anyone can replace the R1B branches from the table with the more well known names?
    Like R1B-U106 and so on.
    Same about R1A branches?
    If someone can show me where I can find the more well known names, for these R1B and R1A long notations, I can try a fast script .

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    Just for curiosity, anyone can publish these Viking samples, from this study, K13 results?
    I seen people already used various calculators for these Vikings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    It would be a stupid belief. The "Normans" who established a colony in France (for taking your words, while it's far from being a fair description) were Danish, Norwegian and (mostly) Anglo-Scandinavian. Nothing to see with the "Italian" individuals from the study. And as to the "Norman" Sicily, it was not a colony, but only a political dominion and the fable of the genetical Norman influx in Sicily is ... a fable. What do those Italian individuals make in this study? Mystery.
    Are you saying that there was a strong genetic influence from Danish-held England on the Normans?

    I read somewhere that this may have been true of the Cotentin Peninsula.

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    Related to this, are there any estimates for the French Norman and Continental European (there were many ethnicities involved, like Walloons) impact on Britain in the aftermath of the Norman conquest by William? I mean there are even many aristocratic lineages known to descent from these Norman age conquerors, but are there any estimates? I wouldn't underestimate that influence actually, especially considering, how many social elite positions they acquired.
    Last edited by Riverman; 10-19-2020 at 09:05 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cascio View Post
    Are you saying that there was a strong genetic influence from Danish-held England on the Normans?

    I read somewhere that this may have been true of the Cotentin Peninsula.
    No one can comment on genetics for lack of reliable samples. But there is no doubt about the reality of this Anglo-Scandinavian establishment, mainly in the east of Normandy (country of Caux), where the Scandinavian and Anglo-Saxon toponymy reached its highest density, until that it is dominant in certain regions. What is striking about this toponymy is its purely rural character, and it converges with the density in the dialect lexicon of concrete Nordic themes designating for example objects of everyday life, weeds, agricultural methods, etc. Behind the written accounts of the life of the powerful, there is this silent phenomenon, which we can in my opinion call “colonization”. A word anyway about the genetics of this Pays de Caux. Unfortunately, I cannot appeal to the samples collected in my paternal family, because next to the Norman roots this one suffers from influences from other regions of Northern Europe (in fact my grandmother was not French at all). But I collected a micro-sample made up of 6 individuals whose genealogy is purely from the Dieppe region, at least judging by the 4 to 6 previous generations. With some variation, no doubt due in part to the varying quality of the data, these individuals could all have been born somewhere between eastern England and northern Germany.
    En North alom, de North venom
    En North fum naiz, en North manom

    (Roman de Rou, Wace, 1160-1170)

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    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    No one can comment on genetics for lack of reliable samples. But there is no doubt about the reality of this Anglo-Scandinavian establishment, mainly in the east of Normandy (country of Caux), where the Scandinavian and Anglo-Saxon toponymy reached its highest density, until that it is dominant in certain regions. What is striking about this toponymy is its purely rural character, and it converges with the density in the dialect lexicon of concrete Nordic themes designating for example objects of everyday life, weeds, agricultural methods, etc. Behind the written accounts of the life of the powerful, there is this silent phenomenon, which we can in my opinion call “colonization”. A word anyway about the genetics of this Pays de Caux. Unfortunately, I cannot appeal to the samples collected in my paternal family, because next to the Norman roots this one suffers from influences from other regions of Northern Europe (in fact my grandmother was not French at all). But I collected a micro-sample made up of 6 individuals whose genealogy is purely from the Dieppe region, at least judging by the 4 to 6 previous generations. With some variation, no doubt due in part to the varying quality of the data, these individuals could all have been born somewhere between eastern England and northern Germany.
    Is there a "Norman patrilineages on the British Isles" project anywhere? Anything which would put the French Norman influence on Britain in percentage-wise estimates? I'm sure if there is one, you know it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cascio View Post
    Are you saying that there was a strong genetic influence from Danish-held England on the Normans?

    I read somewhere that this may have been true of the Cotentin Peninsula.
    I am a Normand from Cotentin. My paternal line is from Val de Saire. Sarnes in the 10th century.
    What is sure, my third Matche on my Y DNA is a Viking from Denmark, maybe even from my current final branch. My closest Contemporary Matches are from southern Sweden, Danish during the Viking Age. Of course that doesn't prove anything, but it's one more piece to the puzzle

    Screenshot_2020-10-19 YFull SNP matches.png
    Last edited by Helgenes50; 10-19-2020 at 09:45 AM.
    Recent Ancestry, full Normand. Known Genealogy 7/8 of the Cotentin peninsula 1/8 region of Coutances. Unfortunately, there are many missing branches on the maternal side.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Is there a "Norman patrilineages on the British Isles" project anywhere? Anything which would put the French Norman influence on Britain in percentage-wise estimates? I'm sure if there is one, you know it
    I'm not very familiar with the genealogic topics. It's very likely that the aristocratic British families have such records. A recurrent problem is that the "Normans" who settled in Britain after the Conquest were not all Norman, far from it. This aside I'm not aware of any significant genes flux from Normandy to Britain, before or after the Conquest. This is a popular legend that is not grounded on anything serious.
    En North alom, de North venom
    En North fum naiz, en North manom

    (Roman de Rou, Wace, 1160-1170)

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