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Thread: Population genomics of the Viking world (bioxiv, 2019, Copenhagen)

  1. #201
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    No R1a1a1a L664. Damn

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  3. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    The two source populations for "Southern Europe" are north western Italy, so I wouldn't be so hasty in suggesting it is true southern Europe, since Sardinians were not included in the study. It could be more of a continental Beaker affinity which is different from that found in Britain, and was obviously absent in Scandinavia until the arrival of the Danes and Germans.

    I'm not convinced that 25-30% Southern Europe would be unusual for a continental central European on this test. It doesn't mean that they have ancestry from the southern tip of Iberia or Italy.
    Yeah I'm seeing this as more of a Germanic (or from around France?) component possibly... as I don't see any of these people having been actually from that far South back a few generations before they were buried in Scando... could have been from Germany though or somewhere near that area. Isotopes would help us tell if they were local or migrant etc...

    I look forward to Generalissmo getting a hold of the raw data and making a PCA - then we might see some clustering with a bit further "south" of Scando - which would be Germany - wouldn't be strange for the DF98 sample to cluster there as the Wettin branch is strong in Germany... and even my S4004 branch under S1911 is made up of Islesmen... a German and a few Norwegian/Swedes and a Polish/German who traces his ancestry back to a town that was probably bought or founded by a German mercenary (his current hypothesis based on old records - and he does in fact match men from that same town with his surname derived from said town etc)... so really a Northern group so far - but we need many more samples! We DO have that old connection to Eboracum/York in 6drif-3 who is in our small group of S4004 etc... but still it's like we get a piece of the puzzle every once-in-a-while and place it in there and look at it and it just doesn't tell the full picture yet!

    Edit: My DF98 Y-DNA group leader Dr. Iain posted this recently to the yahoo forum:

    Many of these individuals will not have had their haplogroups tested down to the most-recent possible haplogroup, as the trees that the studies are using will be out of date.

    In terms of understanding these individuals, their relationships to living testers, and how haplogroups relate to cultures, it's important that our community can go through the raw data and identify those most-recent haplogroups.

    The strong presence of Z9, Z18 and L47 isn't that surprising. The frequency of DF96 and DF98 is unexpected in these populations. While this may simple by a statistical abnormality, it feeds into our lack of understanding of population migrations in the middle and late Bronze Age, which ancient DNA has yet to properly uncover.

    - Iain.

    He also points out we need access to the raw data:

    The authors used the ISOGG tree to assign haplogroups. For several reasons, mostly political, this tree is highly incomplete.

    For example, it truncates at R-DF98, despite the fact that we have hundreds of SNPs representing haplogroups below R-DF98, many of which we have known about for over five years. We need to go back to the source data and run the extracted reads against a modern tree to refine the haplogroup further. The paper indicates the data is there, but because this is a pre-print paper the data has not yet been logged in a public archive. If we want answers quickly, we'll have to ask the paper's authors.

    - Iain.
    Last edited by Bollox79; 07-18-2019 at 08:46 PM.
    Y-DNA: 4th GGF Adam Weaver born 1785 in Pennsylvania (most likely Rhineland German) - Sergeant, US 17th Inf, War of 1812: R1b-U106-DF98-S1911-S1894/S1900-S4004/FGC14818/FGC14823-FGC14816/FGC14817 shared with 6drif-3 - one of the "Headless" Roman Gladiator/Soldiers!

    mtDNA: 3rd GGM Bridget O'Danagher b. 1843 Lorrha/Dorrha, Ireland - T2b2b - Pagan Migrant Icelander SSG-A3 (grave 4) - Sílastaðir in Eyjafjarðarsýsla, North Iceland is T2b2b.

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  5. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    You think?

    The point is that they weren't the only ones. The Baltic coast was a lot closer than either Scotland or Ireland, and no doubt the Vikings took loads of slaves from among the Anglo-Saxons in the Danelaw.
    Apparently there was a Viking slave market in Dublin, but I'm not aware of anything like that in the South Baltic, probably because it was too unstable and dangerous, and full of people who went on raids into Scandinavia.

    If there were stable and busy trade links and slave export routes between Britain/Ireland and Scandinavia, and it sounds like there were, then that would be more of a factor than geographic distance.
    Last edited by Generalissimo; 07-18-2019 at 08:45 PM.

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  9. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bollox79 View Post
    Yeah I'm seeing this as more of a Germanic (or from around France?) component possibly... as I don't see any of these people having been actually from that far South back a few generations before they were buried in Scando... could have been from Germany though or somewhere near that area. Isotopes would help us tell if they were local or migrant etc...

    I look forward to Generalissmo getting a hold of the raw data and making a PCA - then we might see some clustering with a bit further "south" of Scando - which would be Germany - wouldn't be strange for the DF98 sample to cluster there as the Wettin branch is strong in Germany... and even my S4004 branch under S1911 is made up of Islesmen... a German and a few Norwegian/Swedes and a Polish/German who traces his ancestry back to a town that was probably bought or founded by a German mercenary (his current hypothesis based on old records - and he does in fact match men from that same town with his surname derived from said town etc)... so really a Northern group so far - but we need many more samples! We DO have that old connection to Eboracum/York in 6drif-3 who is in our small group of S4004 etc... but still it's like we get a piece of the puzzle every once-in-a-while and place it in there and look at it and it just doesn't tell the full picture yet!
    Germans would come out mostly Danish and British with the source populations used here. The Italian component is too southern for even some modern Italians who get additional British to compensate (fig S11.14 cluster Italy45_t).

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  11. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaikorth View Post
    Germans would come out mostly Danish and British with the source populations used here. The Italian component is too southern for even some modern Italians who get additional British to compensate (fig S11.14 cluster Italy45_t).
    Hmm what do you make of that then? Also guys be nice dont want this thread getting shut down!

    I always see atuosomal as a spectrum of sorts and anocestors and their mixtures can pull you on wzy or another. Several of these samples had this SE ancestry so trying to wrap my head around it... as i realize ydna is not always connected to atuosomal but wondering about it as a sample group etc..
    Last edited by Bollox79; 07-18-2019 at 08:56 PM.
    Y-DNA: 4th GGF Adam Weaver born 1785 in Pennsylvania (most likely Rhineland German) - Sergeant, US 17th Inf, War of 1812: R1b-U106-DF98-S1911-S1894/S1900-S4004/FGC14818/FGC14823-FGC14816/FGC14817 shared with 6drif-3 - one of the "Headless" Roman Gladiator/Soldiers!

    mtDNA: 3rd GGM Bridget O'Danagher b. 1843 Lorrha/Dorrha, Ireland - T2b2b - Pagan Migrant Icelander SSG-A3 (grave 4) - Sílastaðir in Eyjafjarðarsýsla, North Iceland is T2b2b.

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  13. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lugus View Post
    In this paper I just got two new mtDNA matches: VK448, a lady from Hedmark, Norway, 1 step match; and VK542, a certain Gleb Svyatoslavich, found in a tomb next to the Chernihiv cathedral, 2 step match. This is also the type of matches I get at FTDNA (the countries). The haplogroup looks very Balto-Slavic, although it's also found a lot in Germany and Hungary.

    https://www.yfull.com/mtree/H5a2/
    Gleb Svyatoslavich of Rurikid dinasty, was the 11th century prince of Tmutarakan and Novgorod. Gleb was the eldest of the four sons of Sviatoslav Iaroslavich, Prince of Chernigov by his first wife, Killikiya. His father Sviatoslav II Iaroslavich or Sviatoslav II Yaroslavich (1027 – 27 December 1077 in Kiev) was Grand Prince of Kiev between 1073 and 1077. He was born as a younger son of Grand Prince Yaroslav the Wise of Rurikid dinasty.
    But if he was I2a-Din, probably he was not a direct descendant of Rurik.
     
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  15. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by RVBLAKE View Post
    No R1a1a1a L664. Damn
    That's a shocker. I'd assume this would be a corollary to R1b-U106 in Scandinavia.
    yDNA: R1b-BY17850 (England?)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bollox79 View Post
    Hmm what do you make of that then? Also guys be nice dont want this thread getting shut down!
    I suspect the outliers with high "Italian" in Denmark and Sweden actually do have recent South European ancestry, it's not evenly spread and based on the most southern-shifted modern British cluster getting less than 18% Italian something like French or Southern German ancestry won't have nearly enough to explain it (VK286 for instance has over 60%).

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  19. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kopfjäger View Post
    That's a shocker. I'd assume this would be a corollary to R1b-U106 in Scandinavia.
    Over at Eupedia I've read that L664 moved into Scandinavia with another R1a clade, Z284.

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