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Thread: Population genomics of the Viking world (bioxiv, 2019, Copenhagen)

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    Quote Originally Posted by uintah106 View Post
    An extinct line of R-U106. If R-U106 expanded out of Scandinavia into central Europe and Unetice are there corresponding Scandinavian Y lines from R1a and I1 in Unetice burials?
    Probably most of the ancient y-dna lines are extinct. IMHO, what matters is where it turned up. Despite all the Kurgan Bell Beaker samples tested by Olalde et al, not a damned one was U106. Weird, eh, if U106 was slap-dab in the middle of Central European Kurgan Bell Beaker?

    But there's a U106 (RISE 98) in a Battle Axe cemetery in Sweden at the same time Kurgan Bell Beaker was going great guns in the rest of Europe (around 2300 BC).

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Probably most of the ancient y-dna lines are extinct. IMHO, what matters is where it turned up. Despite all the Kurgan Bell Beaker samples tested by Olalde et al, not a damned one was U106. Weird, eh, if U106 was slap-dab in the middle of Central European Kurgan Bell Beaker?

    But there's a U106 (RISE 98) in a Battle Axe cemetery in Sweden at the same time Kurgan Bell Beaker was going great guns in the rest of Europe (around 2300 BC).
    Battle Axe cemetery indeed without any evidence of relationship with Battle Axe And the range is see Krisitina 2275-2032 cal BC. Exactly at that time EBA got hold on Scania. So you make frames out of it....

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Probably most of the ancient y-dna lines are extinct. IMHO, what matters is where it turned up. Despite all the Kurgan Bell Beaker samples tested by Olalde et al, not a damned one was U106. Weird, eh, if U106 was slap-dab in the middle of Central European Kurgan Bell Beaker?

    But there's a U106 (RISE 98) in a Battle Axe cemetery in Sweden at the same time Kurgan Bell Beaker was going great guns in the rest of Europe (around 2300 BC).
    Wasn't there also one in the Dutch Bronze Age Elp culture burial?

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    I'm enjoying this discussion as someone who's curious about U106 given its affinity with I1 and think they potentially both have a lot to tell us about ancient Scandinavia. I must admit I'd just assumed something along the lines of Finn's argument must be the case, so it's been interesting to see the alternative view. It makes a lot of sense. My only question concerns modern distribution and implications for the past. FTDNA isn't working for me right now (WiFi problems I think), but a few months ago it was showing this for England and Sweden (unfortunately I didn't note down Norway):

    M253
    England 2,224; 19.95 percent (largest share)
    Sweden 1,373; 12.32 percent

    R-U106
    England 1,654; 25.04 percent (largest)
    Sweden 298; 4.51 percent

    If the TMRCA of I1 is about 4,600 ybp and U106 4,700 ybp, and they both arose in Scandinavia, shouldn't we expect almost identical distribution today? We know there was movement within and around Scandinavia from an early date so they both had opportunity to spread inside and then out from the region. My internet's playing up, but from memory U106 looks more "German" than I1 does today. Like I said, I make no claims to U106 expertise. I'm just very interested so would appreciate some input from people who know more and can add to the picture.
    Living DNA's former Cautious mode:
    Wales-related ancestry: 86.8%
    Cornwall: 8%
    North England-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,250 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales
    Mother's Y: traces to Llanvair Discoed, Wales

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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    Wasn't there also one in the Dutch Bronze Age Elp culture burial?
    Yeah, Elp, not Kurgan Bell Beaker. I believe Elp is thought to have spread from Scandinavia. Those two skeletons (one male U106 and one female) were stretched out on their backs unlike Kurgan BB burials, and they were later than the neighboring P312 KBB burials.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Battle Axe cemetery indeed without any evidence of relationship with Battle Axe And the range is see Krisitina 2275-2032 cal BC. Exactly at that time EBA got hold on Scania. So you make frames out of it....
    That's circa 2300 BC, and I guess burial in a Battle Axe cemetery in Lilla Beddinge, Sweden, is no evidence of relationship with Battle Axe.

    Follow that up with U106 in Elp, Unetice, and Migration Period Germanics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    Wasn't there also one in the Dutch Bronze Age Elp culture burial?
    Oostwoud R1b U106 is indeed related to Elp, Sögel-Wohlde is the start of the Elp culture and had indeed Tumulus inspired by Unetice. This also the case for NW Germany and Denmark.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    I'm enjoying this discussion as someone who's curious about U106 given its affinity with I1 and think they potentially both have a lot to tell us about ancient Scandinavia. I must admit I'd just assumed something along the lines of Finn's argument must be the case, so it's been interesting to see the alternative view. It makes a lot of sense. My only question concerns modern distribution and implications for the past. FTDNA isn't working for me right now (WiFi problems I think), but a few months ago it was showing this for England and Sweden (unfortunately I didn't note down Norway):

    M253
    England 2,224; 19.95 percent (largest share)
    Sweden 1,373; 12.32 percent

    R-U106
    England 1,654; 25.04 percent (largest)
    Sweden 298; 4.51 percent

    If the TMRCA of I1 is about 4,600 ybp and U106 4,700 ybp, and they both arose in Scandinavia, shouldn't we expect almost identical distribution today? We know there was movement within and around Scandinavia from an early date so they both had opportunity to spread inside and then out from the region. My internet's playing up, but from memory U106 looks more "German" than I1 does today. Like I said, I make no claims to U106 expertise. I'm just very interested so would appreciate some input from people who know more and can add to the picture.
    Those FTDNA figures must be off due to the over abundance of British Isles results in its database.

    As I recall from, I think, Rootsi et al, I-M253 was at least 33% of Swedish y-dna, and that was pretty general in Scandinavia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    Wasn't there also one in the Dutch Bronze Age Elp culture burial?
    This is the Tumulus of Drouwen (Sögel-Wohlde-Elp). (Side kick remark, my mothers family is originated there).




    It belonged to the subtop in the Unetice hierarchy (the one with the golden hair ring).

    Last edited by Finn; 08-23-2019 at 05:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Those FTDNA figures must be off due to the over abundance of British Isles results in its database.

    As I recall from, I think, Rootsi et al, I-M253 was at least 33% of Swedish y-dna, and that was pretty general in Scandinavia.
    Thanks. From memory I1 approaches a majority in southern Sweden but is somewhat less heavily represented elsewhere, although it's still significant throughout. I was looking at the percentage weightings in this case because proportionally they should be directly comparable. I would assume so anyway, but perhaps I'm missing something.
    Living DNA's former Cautious mode:
    Wales-related ancestry: 86.8%
    Cornwall: 8%
    North England-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,250 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales
    Mother's Y: traces to Llanvair Discoed, Wales

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