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Thread: Population genomics of the Viking world (bioxiv, 2019, Copenhagen)

  1. #711
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    It wasn't present in the Netherlands before about 1800 BC, so it had to come from someplace else.
    This at least something. I say based on Fokkens, Probst etc there was an immigration that is rooted in Central Europe.
    You think that its an immigration from Denmark? Based on?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Simply Fokkens en Probst are reliable sources.
    Maybe, but thus far I don't see them saying what you're saying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    However, autosomically the Elp sample is similar to the West-Frisian BB. I have a bias here, being Dutch, but maybe the Nordic Bronze Age horizon extended to NW Germany and northern Netherlands.

    Archaeology sees Veluwe beakers being ancestral to Barbed Wire culture and Hilversum culture, the latter being assciated with Wessex Culture.

    We need a Dutch, NW German and Danish late neolithic/ early Bronze Age paper, pretty much.
    Fokkens (a BB expert par excellence) is clear :Sögel-Wohlde warriors swept away the last features of the BB culture in the North Dutch area. The Elp culture is indeed North Dutch, NW Germany up to Denmark. The impulses came clearly from the southeast from Central Europe. No pasaran

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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    However, autosomically the Elp sample is similar to the West-Frisian BB. I have a bias here, being Dutch, but maybe the Nordic Bronze Age horizon extended to NW Germany and northern Netherlands.

    Archaeology sees Veluwe beakers being ancestral to Barbed Wire culture and Hilversum culture, the latter being assciated with Wessex Culture.

    We need a Dutch, NW German and Danish late neolithic/ early Bronze Age paper, pretty much.
    We do, and we need to see some Elp dna from Denmark.

    I'd like to see some dna from northern Kurgan Bell Beaker. That could be really revealing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Maybe, but thus far I don't see them saying what you're saying.
    Quite Simple. Sögel-Wohlde is kick start Elp (Fokkens). Sögel-Wohlde is related to Unetice (Probst).

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    We do, and we need to see some Elp dna from Denmark.

    I'd like to see some dna from northern Kurgan Bell Beaker. That could be really revealing.

    Of course but I don't see the point why Jutish Bell Beaker would turn into Unetice adepts equipped with Moravian-Hungarian swords, became Sögel-Wohlde warrior, and than went to NW Germany and North Dutch....schiet mij maar lek.

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    Didn't Sögel-Wohlde actually begin a couple of hundred years after Elp? If so, how did Sögel-Wohlde "kick-start" Elp?

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    Since the discussion is on early U106 burials here are my notes on those:

    RISE 98: Sweden, Lille Beddinge 56, Culture: Battle Axe (2800 - 2300 B.C.)/Nordic LN (2200 - 1800 B.C.), grave 49/South skeleton, flat graves. Positive for R1b-U106 > Z2265+ > BY30097-. Note that most of U106 men are Z2265+ > BY30097+.

    Lilla Bedinge, Lilla Beddinge parish, Raä 1:1
    Lilla Bedinge in southern Scania comprises the largest known cemetery associated with the Swedish Battle Axe Culture. The site, extending over an area of about 240×30 m, is located only about 1 km from the present day coastline. The majority of the at least 14 identified and excavated flat earth inhumations graves are located on a NE–SW oriented moraine embankment, whereas four of the graves are found on the flatter grounds to the SE. The site also includes a number of Late Bronze Age cremation graves, and two other find spots for BAC inhumation graves are known in the nearby region. Several different excavations of the inhumation graves (Graves I–XIV, correlating with Graves 41–54 in Malmer 1962) have been carried out between 1915 and 1951, by Folke Hansen, Otto Frödin and, later on, Mats P. Malmer (see further Malmer 1962). According to Malmer (1962:180) three of the inhumation graves, all lacking grave goods, probably date to the Late Neolithic, possibly together with the mass burial Grave 47. The remains of one to four destroyed graves with stone constructions in the southern part of the site (termed Grave 14) cannot be dated. The remainder of the features typo-logically fall within Period 3–5. In the present study, skeletal remains from Graves 47, 49, 52 and 53 were included in the analyses.

    Grave 49 was excavated by Hansen 1934. It constitutes a N–S oriented subsurface oval stone construction with pointed edges, measuring about 4.5×2 m, where flat stone slabs form a roof over a chamber with an original height estimated to about 0.6–0.7 m. Fragments of wood indicate the presence of planks in the chamber. On the stone paved floor of the chamber three adult individuals had been placed in a line in sitting crouched positions facing southwest. Between the northern and middle skeleton fragmented remains of three children (initially only two were identified), representing two infants and a juvenile, were recovered. Further, some very brittle diaphyses of a fourth adult have been identified. The only recovered find is a bone needle deposited next to the northern skeleton (Hansen 1934; Malmer 1962:162p; During unpublished notes). According to Malmer (2002:141) the grave can be dated to Period 4, and an unpublished radiocarbon date from the northern skeleton falls within the interval 2580–1980 cal. BC (2σ, 3850±105 BP, Ua-2758, During unpublished notes).


    I4070: Skeleton 230: R1b - U106 > Z381. I4070/skeleton 230 barrow I-M7:1881–1646 calBCE (3440±40 BP, GrA-17225).

    In the Early Bronze Age, between 1900 and 1700 BCE probably, at 20 m distance, a second burial mound (Tumulus I) was raised in which two skeletons have been interred, probably in the already existing barrow (skeletons 230 and 231). Both skeletons were buried in a manner typical for the Middle Bronze Age, stretched on their backs. Both are dated between 1880 and 1650 calBCE (3440±40 BP, GrA-17225 and 3450±BP, GrA-17226). The burial mound was surrounded by a circle of 80 cm wide pits with a diameter of approximately 20 m. Probably at the same time a 35 m long alignment of almost identical pits was dug in connection with the older mound (Tumulus II). The stratigraphy of the arable land, the graves and the pit circles and alignments demonstrate that the Oostwoud-Tuithoorn burial mounds constituted a small persistent place, a burial ground that was used intermittently but consistently, probably by several generations of a local group of inhabitants.


    I7196: R1b - L23 > L51 > L151 > U106 > Z381 > Z156 > Z304 > DF98 > S1911 > S1894. Early Unetice period/EBA about 2300-1800 B.C. Grave 59 at "Prague-Jinonice (“Zahradnictví”, Prague 5 – Jinonice, Czech Republic).” The rescue excavations at the site Jinonice – Holman’s gardening took place in 1984-1986 during the construction of the subway [101–103]. A total of 29 graves were found, dated to the older phases of the Únětice culture on the basis of grave equipment (ceramic and bronze inventory) and burial ritual [103,104]. The skeletal remains of 36 individuals were found in the graves [105], with predominance of adults between 20-40 years of age. However, the burial ground was not excavated completely. With the exception of two graves, grave goods (mainly pottery) were found in all graves." The site itself is in Jinonice in south-western Prague.

    (This translated from Czech paper): The orientation of the graves and individuals responds to the older phase of the Unetice culture. In most cases, the individual was on the right side, facing the exit (Moucha - Špaček 2011, 208). Strict orientation of the tombs or individuals was captured in 90% of cases. Only 2, 5% of the tombs had a deviation of the SS and 5% of the SS-SS. This orientation and tolerances are typical of this period. In Central Bohemia the deviation in the direction of the SW-SV is more prevalent, but there are two variants of deviations
    (Matthew 1982, 37-41).

    Some general info on this Jinonice burial ground and grave 59 translated from a Czech paper on this burial ground:
    Group A: On the northern area, 13 graves were discovered (Figure 6). Eleven graves could be identified accurately, three graves No. 24, 54 and 56 are outlined schematically, but their belonging to this area is "undeniable." From the graves, there are a number of graves 29, 30 and 31 in the western part of the burial ground. There is adjacent to tomb 29
    from the north grave 32. The second row in the west consists of graves No. 54, 55, 59. These two councils simultaneously "bind" grave 56. The eastern part of the burial ground is again one row of graves 1, 2, 24 and 28.

    The shape of the gravesite pit was not captured, or some traces of disturbance could be observed in seventy cases in graves 1, 2, 24, 31, 55, 56 and 59 (Figure 60: 1, 2; 61:24; 63:31; 65 : 55, 56; 66:59, 60), but for three of these graves No. 24, 55, 56 it is possible to derive the shape of the tombstone according to the documentation. The reason for the broken graves is probably their shallow recession, when the graves of the junks fell victim to the mechanical debris, and the tomb 59 was broken by the younger tomb of the Latins.

    With 11 surviving sepulchres the depth ranged from 7 cm at graves No. 55 and 56 up to 20 cm at grave No. 59. The grave depth probably did not affect the position of tombs at the burial ground. An exception to this almost standardized 10 cm recess can be seen in the tomb No. 59, which does not form a central grave, but rather is located on the edge of the surveyed area, and due to its violation of the young Latin tomb, it is impossible to follow other indices.

    Any funeral equipment contains 11 graves, evenly spaced across the entire group. This percentage is 84.6%. Two graves without equipment No. 24 and 56, although without a precise geodetic orientation, but based on a sketch (Kovárik 1984-1986), it is possible to place them on the marginal places within the burial ground (Figure 6). The most numerous tomb inventory is a pottery consisting of 28 vessels, which were located in ten graves. The absence of a ceramic vessel in the tomb No. 59 is questionable as the grave was broken by the already mentioned Lathean tomb, and when the vessel was at its legs, it was destroyed.

    Bronze industry is represented by four artifacts. In the two graves No. 28 and 59, there were three bronze wings spun from a simple wire. There is a bronze dagger in tomb no. The earrings in all three cases were in the area of ​​sleep, dagger back to the individual in the pan. Pomero starts with 0, 25 bronze per dying. Bronze articles are found in every "row" of graves, creating at least visual the assumption of some almost regular deployment in the northern group of the burial ground. Even in the case of Grave No. 30 with a bronze dagger, one can not speak of a central position, on the contrary, the tomb completes its imaginative order with its location.

    The cracked industry was represented by quartz spikes and splinters. Overall, it appeared in five graves. Of this, in the graves No. 1 and 30 there were collections of scraps along the skulls and behind the spikes of the arrows, mostly in the vicinity of the pan, only in grave No. 28 the position of the cleaved industry could not be determined. In the remaining tomb No. 59 there were only queen shavings, there were only arrows in the tomb or grave and in the grave No. 55, but the position against the deceased was not determined. Concentration of the fragmented industry creates graves No. 1 and 28 in the eastern part of the burial ground and on the opposite side of graves No. 30, 55, 59.

    The finding of a fragment of the scarlet motif in the pelvis of a person in the tomb no. 59 is probably not particularly specific in the tomb position, as well as the stone "crush" in the tomb no. 55 at an undetermined position (Petriščáková 2009, 43). Sixteen of the individuals were anthropologically identified for sex only at six. There was one woman and five men at the burial ground. From that adult-adult woman, she was buried in the tomb No. 31, three adult-adult men in graves No. 2, 29, 30 and other men, one adult in Tomb 28 and one maturus in tomb No. 54 In general, fifteen individuals, three infans (two in the tomb 28, one in the tomb 32), two adult juveniles (graves 28, 56), seven adult adults (graves 2 , 23, 29, 30, 31, two in the tomb No. 55) and finally three maturus individuals (graves No. 1, 54, 59). The age could not be determined by one dead (Grave 24). A close grouping of adults of adult age can be observed at septents No. 29, 30, 31, but their concentration may be accidental, as age groups or age groups are not registered for other age groups. It can be inferred from this that, as adults, both adolescents and children were buried at the burial ground without visible rules that could be identified.
    Bronze objects also occurred in the graves several times even in one individual. A bronze dagger was found in the male tomb No. 30 in the adult, a bronze muzzle in the older person with a skull in the tomb No. 59.

    Cheers!
    Y-DNA: 4th GGF Adam Weaver born 1785 in Pennsylvania (most likely Rhineland German) - Sergeant, US 17th Inf, War of 1812: R1b-U106-DF98-S1911-S1894/S1900-S4004/FGC14818/FGC14823-FGC14816/FGC14817 shared with 6drif-3 - one of the "Headless" Roman Gladiator/Soldiers!

    mtDNA: 3rd GGM Bridget O'Danagher b. 1843 Lorrha/Dorrha, Ireland - T2b2b - Pagan Migrant Icelander SSG-A3 (grave 4) - Sílastaðir in Eyjafjarðarsýsla, North Iceland is T2b2b.

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    And if Central Europe was loaded with U106 just waiting to burst forth, where was it when Olalde et al and others were testing Central European samples?

    Funny that the one Kurgan Bell Beaker zone untouched by Olalde et al was the northeast, and that there was no KBB U106, DF99, DF19 or L238 in his results. Hmmm . . . maybe they were lurking up there?

    A possible hint is that U106 from Sweden circa 2300 BC, the oldest U106 thus far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Didn't Sögel-Wohlde actually begin a couple of hundred years after Elp? If so, how did Sögel-Wohlde "kick-start" Elp?
    No. Prof Harry Fokkens (1998):
    ''The northern Netherlands is part of the northern group (NW Germany and Denmark) especially of the Sögeler Kreis characterized by a number of distinctive men's graves. The Drouwen grave is the best known Dutch example.It's remarkable that the Elp culture has never been presented as the immigration of a new group of people. Because clearly this period was a time when a number of new elements made their entry while others disappeared. The disappearance of beakers, the appearance of the Sögel men's graves with the first 'swords', among other things, the fully extended burial posture, under barrows; all the factors have been reason enough in the past to conclude that the Elp culture represented an immigration of Sögel warriors."

    May be I must formulate it in another way: there were some fellas form Unetice that wanted to buy Denmark, NW Germany and North Dutch. But they didn't take it serious. They called it absurd. At first as a big man a Sögel-Wohlde warrior I thought what the heck Denmark I'm not interested. But finally I grabded them...

    End of short story!

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