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Thread: Population genomics of the Viking world (bioxiv, 2019, Copenhagen)

  1. #721
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    schiet mij maar lek.
    I think only I understand that, Finn

  2. #722
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bollox79 View Post
    . . .


    I7196: R1b - L23 > L51 > L151 > U106 > Z381 > Z156 > Z304 > DF98 > S1911 > S1894. Early Unetice period/EBA about 2300-1800 B.C. . . .
    That was kind of a lengthy post (almost tldr), but according to page 47 of the Supplementary Info of Olalde et al, "The Beaker Phenomenon", the dates for I7196 are 2200-1700 BC.

    I7196/Grave 59: 2200–1700 BCE. Right-sided crouched burial, head towards the south. Sex: orientation – ?, anthropology – ?, DNA – M. Age: adult (35–50 years). Grave goods: bronze hair ring, bone awl, flint industry.
    So that one post dates RISE 98.
    Last edited by rms2; 08-23-2019 at 07:25 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    I think only I understand that, Finn
    No Rms2 is related to Redeker (if I'm well) and has family from Oldenburg Ost-Friesland, so may be....hahahah

  5. #724
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    No. Prof Harry Fokkens (1998):
    ''The northern Netherlands is part of the northern group (NW Germany and Denmark) especially of the Sögeler Kreis characterized by a number of distinctive men's graves. The Drouwen grave is the best known Dutch example.It's remarkable that the Elp culture has never been presented as the immigration of a new group of people. Because clearly this period was a time when a number of new elements made their entry while others disappeared. The disappearance of beakers, the appearance of the Sögel men's graves with the first 'swords', among other things, the fully extended burial posture, under barrows; all the factors have been reason enough in the past to conclude that the Elp culture represented an immigration of Sögel warriors."

    May be I must formulate it in another way: there were some fellas form Unetice that wanted to buy Denmark, NW Germany and North Dutch. But they didn't take it serious. They called it absurd. At first as a big man a Sögel-Wohlde warrior I thought what the heck Denmark I'm not interested. But finally I grabded them...

    End of short story!
    Great, but Elp supposedly began about 1800 BC, and Sögel-Wohlde began about 200 years later.

    Maybe Marty McFly was the first Sögel-Wohlde warrior?

    Mal'ta Boy Back to the Future.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    No Rms2 is related to Redeker (if I'm well) and has family from Oldenburg Ost-Friesland, so may be....hahahah
    Yeah, I got it. Snedeker, not Redeker.

  7. #726
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Great, but Elp supposedly began about 1800 BC, and Sögel-Wohlde began about 200 years later.

    Maybe Marty McFly was the first Sögel-Wohlde warrior?

    Mal'ta Boy Back to the Future.jpg
    So you think Fokkens is really that stupid...

    Periodization in pre-historic times is not exact.

    The Drouwen Sögel-Wohlde grave is from about 1800 BC. I would take a plus or minus. But periodization isn't the game chancer here....

    https://www.hunebednieuwscafe.nl/201...n-van-drouwen/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    So you think Fokkens is really that stupid...

    Periodization in pre-historic times is not exact.

    The Drouwen Sögel-Wohlde grave is from about 1800 BC. I would take a plus or minus. But periodization isn't the game chancer here....

    https://www.hunebednieuwscafe.nl/201...n-van-drouwen/
    No, I don't know Fokkens personally. I'm just saying what I've read, and that is Elp first, in about 1800 BC, and Sögel-Wohlde second, in about 1600 BC.

    Maybe that's wrong, but one would expect something like the reverse, if Sögel-Wohlde is responsible for Elp.

    And, honestly, I don't really care. Sometimes I like to argue for fun, and I don't see any evidence for U106 in Central Europe before Unetice.

  9. #728
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bollox79 View Post
    I7196: R1b - L23 > L51 > L151 > U106 > Z381 > Z156 > Z304 > DF98 > S1911 > S1894. Early Unetice period/EBA about 2300-1800 B.C. Grave 59 at "Prague-Jinonice (“Zahradnictví”, Prague 5 – Jinonice, Czech Republic).” The rescue excavations at the site Jinonice – Holman’s gardening took place in 1984-1986 during the construction of the subway [101–103]. A total of 29 graves were found, dated to the older phases of the Únětice culture on the basis of grave equipment (ceramic and bronze inventory) and burial ritual [103,104]. The skeletal remains of 36 individuals were found in the graves [105], with predominance of adults between 20-40 years of age. However, the burial ground was not excavated completely. With the exception of two graves, grave goods (mainly pottery) were found in all graves." The site itself is in Jinonice in south-western Prague.
    In the paper, I7196 is dated to 2200–1700 BCE, but that seems to be the date of the Únětice culture (ca. 2300-1700 BC). If the report says that the samples were dated to the older phases of the culture, I would understand that mean c. 2200-2100 BC.

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  11. #729
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    The revised date for I7196 (which I take to mean 2200-2000 BC) makes it approximately the same age as RISE98 (2275-2032 BC). Thus, we can no longer accurately state RISE98 is the oldest U106+ individual found thus far.
    Gedmatch DNA: M032736 Gedcom: 6613110.
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    co-administrator: Y-DNA R-U106 Haplogroup Project

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    Quote Originally Posted by uintah106 View Post
    There are no Z284 samples in this viking age study from Jutland,Eastern Denmark,Scania or Halland as far as I can see.R1a showed up in Scandinavia with corded ware in a dominant fashion. R U106 seems to arrived at least to southern Scandinavia en masse later during the Nordic Bronze age.
    So in the end uintah106 several pages later your scenario is not that weird. In both NW European cases (Lilla Beddinge and Oostwoud) there is an early Bronze Age connection with Central Europe.

    Lilla Beddinge (Rise 98) is situated in an area, outmost southwest Scania, lived in area in which there was a transformation going on in which there was, by the Oder, direct contact with the Unetice core zone. Immigration from Central Europe is a real possibly.
    Oostwoud, the first R1b U106 in the Northern Netherlands, lived in a time in which Sögel-Wohlde warriors were new immigrants, with sometimes very remarkable man graves. These warriors can (in)direct connected to the Central European room see the Hungarian-Moravian swords and the Unetice style graves. It gave an impuls for the development of the western part of the Nordic Bronze Age (the coastal line North Dutch-NW Germany- Jutland).
    Why was in Drouwen the richest grave of the North German Plain? In Drouwen wells the river Hunze, this mounds in the North Sea better the Wadden Sea, this was a place were amber could be found, so in the amber transport Drouwen was a place in which the transport of amber went from water to (in)land....A strategic place.

    Anyway in both R1bU106 cases there is a real possible connection with the Bronze Age civilization of Central Europe....

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