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Thread: The Kurgan Bell Beaker People

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    Smile The Kurgan Bell Beaker People

    I know I'm probably asking for trouble posting this here, but I posted it in another thread, and it got very little attention.

    Anyway, below is a link to a Google Slides presentation I made on the Kurgan Bell Beaker people. Some of it is my opinion, most of it is not. In both cases it is well documented, so you can check the sources and read them for yourself.

    It's subject to updates as things change and more evidence comes in, especially ancient dna results.

    The best way to look at it is to click on View at the top and then on Present from the drop-down menu.

    The Kurgan Bell Beaker People
    Last edited by rms2; 07-18-2019 at 04:10 PM.
     


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  3. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    I know I'm probably asking for trouble posting this here, but I posted it in another thread, and it got very little attention.

    Anyway, below is a link to a Google Slides presentation I made on the Kurgan Bell Beaker people. Some of it is my opinion, most of it is not. In both cases it is well documented, so you can check the sources and read them for yourself.

    It's subject to updates as things change and more evidence comes in, especially ancient dna results.

    The best way to look at it is to click on View at the top and then on Present from the drop-down menu.

    The Kurgan Bell Beaker People
    That was an interesting and visually pleasing presentation.

    Thanks for posting it!
    Known Paper Trail: 45.3% English, 29.7% Scottish, 12.5% Irish, 6.25% German & 6.25% Italian. Or: 87.5% British Isles, 6.25% German & 6.25% Italian.
    LivingDNA: 88.1% British Isles (59.7% English, 27% Scottish & 1.3% Irish), 5.9% Europe South (Aegian 3.4%, Tuscany 1.3%, Sardinia 1.1%), 4.4% Europe NW (Scandinavia) & 1.6% Europe East, (Mordovia).
    FT Big Y: I1-Z140 branch I-F2642 >Y1966 >Y3649 >A13241 >Y3647 >A13248 (circa 620 AD) >A13242/YSEQ (circa 765 AD) >A13243/YSEQ (circa 1340 AD).

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    I know I'm probably asking for trouble posting this here, but I posted it in another thread, and it got very little attention.

    Anyway, below is a link to a Google Slides presentation I made on the Kurgan Bell Beaker people. Some of it is my opinion, most of it is not. In both cases it is well documented, so you can check the sources and read them for yourself.

    It's subject to updates as things change and more evidence comes in, especially ancient dna results.

    The best way to look at it is to click on View at the top and then on Present from the drop-down menu.

    The Kurgan Bell Beaker People
    Absolutely top notch! Not a critique, but I would add something about how the genetics of Yamnaya formed on the steppe (didn't see CHG mentioned) and also the possibility that plague may have played a part in the collapse of Old Europe.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    It would actually be quite beneficial if a lot of these migrations that had massive genetic/cultural/linguistic impact were covered in such an appealing visual format (whether powerpoint or not) that is easy to understand. It would be very helpful for the average 'laymen' who are not quite interested in genetics/anthropology, but would still like to be informed. Thank you rms2 for posting it, and I will definitely attempt to recreate something like this for other migrations/material cultures that interest me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    Absolutely top notch! Not a critique, but I would add something about how the genetics of Yamnaya formed on the steppe (didn't see CHG mentioned) and also the possibility that plague may have played a part in the collapse of Old Europe.
    I thought about covering CHG on Slide 7, which first mentions the Neolithic people of the Eurasian steppe. I will probably include that when I get the chance. It shouldn't be hard.

    I also thought about working the plague into it, as well, and may do that, too.
     


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    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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    Thank you first of all.

    There is a question about a few points of a story:
    - Matriarchate in the Old Europe. What we see in Globular Amphorae for example, tells us about patrilocal family, same as in the Steppe. There is a question about more sedentary cultures, but it would be good probably to point out that what Gimbutas wrote about role of women in the "Old Europe" cannot be considered proven. The same for "Venus" figures - there is no proof that these were figures of a goddess.
    - Same for the very question of existance special preistesses in pre-IndoEuropean Europe.
    - Zlota group people had no or almost no Steppe ancestry, so I would not list them as one of CWC sub-groups, or at least would point out that they had a different genetical origin.
    - Kurgan is not a Russian word for hill, this is a word likely borrowed by Russians from Steppe people, that only means artificial burial hill (the word for "hill" in Russian is холм *holm* and as for me it sounds surprisingly similar to English word "hill").
    - probably it is worth to mention that the first people with Steppe ancestry in Iberia are about 2500 BCE, but the population turnover there likely happened about 600 years later than in the rest of West Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by artemv View Post
    Thank you first of all.

    There is a question about a few points of a story:
    - Matriarchate in the Old Europe. What we see in Globular Amphorae for example, tells us about patrilocal family, same as in the Steppe.
    Globular Amphora was a culture that had been under the influence of its steppe pastoralist neighbors. My Google Slides presentation was not meant to be an analysis of each and every separate Neolithic and Copper Age culture of Europe. It was of necessity a broad, general treatment. In saying that, I am not necessarily agreeing with you; I'm just saying that I did not spend any time focusing on GAC or on any other particular farmer culture.

    Quote Originally Posted by artemv View Post
    There is a question about more sedentary cultures, but it would be good probably to point out that what Gimbutas wrote about role of women in the "Old Europe" cannot be considered proven. The same for "Venus" figures - there is no proof that these were figures of a goddess.
    - Same for the very question of existance special preistesses in pre-IndoEuropean Europe.
    Not much of anything from 5,000 or more years ago can be regarded as "proven", but I think the evidence is pretty strong for the cult of the mother goddess and a concomitant matrifocal emphasis missing from PIE culture.

    Quote Originally Posted by artemv View Post
    - Zlota group people had no or almost no Steppe ancestry, so I would not list them as one of CWC sub-groups, or at least would point out that they had a different genetical origin.
    I was not aware of ancient dna from the Złota Corded Ware subgroup. Can you provide a link to the paper in which it appears?

    Złota is listed as a Corded Ware subgroup by Janusz Czebreszuk in his article, "Corded Ware from East to West" in the book, Ancient Europe 8000 B.C. - A.D. 1000, edited by Peter Bogucki (Scribner, 2004). I was pretty careful about citing my sources.

    From page 469 of that article:

    Quote Originally Posted by Janusz Czebreszuk
    The Corded Ware variants most solidly grounded in literature are as follows: the Single Grave culture; the Protruding Foot Beaker culture; Corded Ware of the Alpine Pile Dwellings; Central German Corded Ware; Bohemian-Moravian Corded Ware; Małopolska Corded Ware; Złota culture; Battle-Axe culture; the Rzucewo culture; Middle Dnieper culture; and the Fatianovo culture.

    Quote Originally Posted by artemv View Post
    - Kurgan is not a Russian word for hill, this is a word likely borrowed by Russians from Steppe people, that only means artificial burial hill (the word for "hill" in Russian is холм *holm* and as for me it sounds surprisingly similar to English word "hill").
    Kurgan was borrowed from Turkic. The description of it as a hill or mound is pretty standard and was not intended to be an exhaustive etymology of the term. However, I will go in and clear that up a bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by artemv View Post
    - probably it is worth to mention that the first people with Steppe ancestry in Iberia are about 2500 BCE, but the population turnover there likely happened about 600 years later than in the rest of West Europe.
    I didn't say otherwise. 2500 BC was given as the rough terminus post quem.

    I never said the Kurgan BB people arrived and within a few months or a year or two wiped out the Neolithic Iberians.

    Here's what I wrote, on Slide 26, citing Olalde et al:

    Dr. Olalde and his colleagues found that while about 40% of the Neolithic population of Iberia was replaced by incomers with steppe dna, over 90% of the y chromosomes were replaced by the R1b-M269 y chromosome of steppe origin, which had been absent in Iberia prior to about 2500 BC.29
    A person who wants to imagine that the replacement occurred very rapidly would have to read that into what I wrote. I also did not say it took a long time. Those who are curious about how long the process took could notice end note 29 and check the source material.

    Recall that this is a Google Slides presentation. It was never intended to be an exhaustive treatment of the subject on the lines of a doctoral dissertation or even a research paper. Anyone even passingly familiar with European prehistory must surely realize that there are all sorts of details that can lead to all sorts of rabbit holes down which one can go.

    Feel free to go down the rabbit holes of your choice.
    Last edited by rms2; 07-19-2019 at 12:49 PM.
     


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    I like it. It is concise and summarizes all very well...

    But the choice of the font on the other hand... "comic-sans" for goodness's sake... Seriously?
    Do you have a question or topic about genetics in Spain and/or prefer to use Spanish language? Visit the new subforum!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadogowah View Post
    I like it. It is concise and summarizes all very well...

    But the choice of the font on the other hand... "comic-sans" for goodness's sake... Seriously?
    It's better than "Roboto".
     


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    Additional Data:
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    Red Hair Carrier:
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    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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