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Thread: Am I part Yekke?

  1. #11
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    And I'm actually wrong here, that was K36 by-population similarity. Here are my values above 0.9:

    GR_Dodecanese 0,94738
    German_Ashkenazy 0,94665
    GR_Kalymnos 0,94584
    Malta 0,94382
    Sicily_Katania 0,94304
    GR_Chios 0,94124
    Romanian_Jew 0,93905
    Poland_Ashkenazy 0,9378
    Sicily_Palermo 0,93546
    Latvia_Ashkenazy 0,9349
    IT_Calabria 0,93332
    GR_Crete 0,93276
    GR_Ikaria 0,93226
    Sicily_Trapani 0,93165
    France_Ashkenazy 0,93139
    Sicily_Caltanisetta 0,92944
    GR_Cyclades 0,92915
    Sicily_Ragusa 0,9291
    IT_Apulia 0,9286
    IT_Campania 0,9282
    Sicily_Agrigento 0,92545
    IT_Abruzzo 0,92507
    GR_Kythira 0,92048
    GR_Andros 0,91919
    GR_Central 0,91823
    Sicily_Messina 0,91743
    Sephardi_Turkey 0,91479
    Italian_Jew 0,90661
    Belarus_Ashkenazy 0,90556
    Sephardi_Bulgaria 0,90257

    The Ashkenazi regional differences are interesting to me, and I don't remember anything about sample sizes, sampling methods, or significant shifts in affinity.
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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by hartaisarlag View Post
    And I'm actually wrong here, that was K36 by-population similarity. Here are my values above 0.9:

    GR_Dodecanese 0,94738
    German_Ashkenazy 0,94665
    GR_Kalymnos 0,94584
    Malta 0,94382
    Sicily_Katania 0,94304
    GR_Chios 0,94124
    Romanian_Jew 0,93905
    Poland_Ashkenazy 0,9378
    Sicily_Palermo 0,93546
    Latvia_Ashkenazy 0,9349
    IT_Calabria 0,93332
    GR_Crete 0,93276
    GR_Ikaria 0,93226
    Sicily_Trapani 0,93165
    France_Ashkenazy 0,93139
    Sicily_Caltanisetta 0,92944
    GR_Cyclades 0,92915
    Sicily_Ragusa 0,9291
    IT_Apulia 0,9286
    IT_Campania 0,9282
    Sicily_Agrigento 0,92545
    IT_Abruzzo 0,92507
    GR_Kythira 0,92048
    GR_Andros 0,91919
    GR_Central 0,91823
    Sicily_Messina 0,91743
    Sephardi_Turkey 0,91479
    Italian_Jew 0,90661
    Belarus_Ashkenazy 0,90556
    Sephardi_Bulgaria 0,90257

    The Ashkenazi regional differences are interesting to me, and I don't remember anything about sample sizes, sampling methods, or significant shifts in affinity.
    Where did you get this and how did they get all those references (Belarus_Ashkenazi etc.) ?

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  5. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by StillWater View Post
    Where did you get this and how did they get all those references (Belarus_Ashkenazi etc.) ?
    I got it from Lukasz for a few euros, I think, back in late 2017. He says the references are from Behar et al 2013. "Austro-Hungarian Ashkenazi" and "Dutch Ashkenazi" are even farther down my list; in the first case, farther than a few North African Jewish groups + Cypriots, and in the second, farther even than Syrian Jews (probably bc of known Dutch admixture in the population).

    Also worth commenting that some national-level groupings are useful—like Belarus—while others encompass too much variation to be useful, like Poland. Lithuanian Jews, which would probably be a useful group, are not represented, at least on my results list. Latvian Jews might be a decent proxy for them, but I also know that the Jews of Courland have a unique cultural (and maybe migrational) history. I would assume Romanian Jews are a better representation of Galitzian/Podolian Jews than an aggregate sample of either Polish or Ukrainian Jews, but again, I can think of possible confounds.
    Last edited by hartaisarlag; 07-21-2019 at 08:47 PM.
    The clock indicates the momentóbut what does eternity indicate?

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  7. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by hartaisarlag View Post
    I got it from Davidski for a few euros, I think, back in late 2017. Unsure where they got those references. "Austro-Hungarian Ashkenazi" and "Dutch Ashkenazi" are even farther down my list; in the first case, farther than a few North African Jewish groups + Cypriots, and in the second, farther even than Syrian Jews (probably bc of known Dutch admixture in the population).
    Would've guessed it was from Lukasz. Do you recommend either?

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  9. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by StillWater View Post
    Would've guessed it was from Lukasz. Do you recommend either?
    I got Poles confused. It was Lukasz.

    I'm not sure how informative it was—my results seem pretty typical Ashkenazi, and frankly, I don't think it's that meaningful to know which Greek Island or Sicilian region I match best.
    The clock indicates the momentóbut what does eternity indicate?

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  11. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by hartaisarlag View Post
    I got it from Davidski for a few euros, I think, back in late 2017. He says the references are from Behar et al 2013. "Austro-Hungarian Ashkenazi" and "Dutch Ashkenazi" are even farther down my list; in the first case, farther than a few North African Jewish groups + Cypriots, and in the second, farther even than Syrian Jews (probably bc of known Dutch admixture in the population).

    Also worth commenting that some national-level groupings are useful—like Belarus—while others encompass too much variation to be useful, like Poland. Lithuanian Jews, which would probably be a useful group, are not represented, at least on my results list. Latvian Jews might be a decent proxy for them, but I also know that the Jews of Courland have a unique cultural (and maybe migrational) history. I would assume Romanian Jews are a better representation of Galitzian/Podolian Jews than an aggregate sample of either Polish or Ukrainian Jews, but again, I can think of possible confounds.
    You have to be careful when using Latvian Jews, as many from Riga are recent arrivals from Ukraine. Romanian Jews are very interesting. I wonder how much they descend from Sephardim, especially given that the rabbinical leadership was originally Sephardic. Memel should be explored more closely. Jews from there considered themselves Yekkes, with some being recent arrivals from Germany. I wonder how much Yekke descent it contributed to other Litvaks.

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  13. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by hartaisarlag View Post
    I got Poles confused. It was Lukasz.

    I'm not sure how informative it was—my results seem pretty typical Ashkenazi, and frankly, I don't think it's that meaningful to know which Greek Island or Sicilian region I match best.
    Here are my father's results in comparison (mostly Ashkenazi, ~25% Krymchak):

     


    Sicily_Caltanisetta 0,94104
    Sicily_Messina 0,94091
    Italian_Jew 0,94009
    German_Ashkenazy 0,93948
    Sicily_Agrigento 0,93759
    France_Ashkenazy 0,93655
    Sephardi_Turkey 0,93578
    Sicily_Ragusa 0,93484
    Sephardi_Bulgaria 0,93453
    Sicily_Katania 0,93276
    Romanian_Jew 0,93178
    IT_Calabria 0,93129
    GR_Crete 0,92981
    Sicily_Trapani 0,92955
    Romaniote 0,9295
    Poland_Ashkenazy 0,92865
    Sicily_Palermo 0,92823
    GR_Ikaria 0,92728
    IT_Campania 0,92418
    Latvia_Ashkenazy 0,9216
    IT_Apulia 0,921
    GR_Kythira 0,91786
    AustroHungarian_Ashkenazy 0,91579
    GR_Chios 0,91519
    Malta 0,91458
    GR_Dodecanese 0,91418
    Belarus_Ashkenazy 0,91328
    Cyprus 0,91041
    GR_Kalymnos 0,90938
    IT_Abruzzo 0,90128


    The high similarity to Caltanissetta is something he gets quite often. Also, according to Sikeliot, Messina is one of the most Near Eastern-leaning regions in Sicily. Likewise, not too sure whether this is really meaningful, all that really tells me is that his genetic profile (much like yours) is typically Eastern Mediterranean.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  15. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    Here are my father's results in comparison (mostly Ashkenazi, ~25% Krymchak):

     


    Sicily_Caltanisetta 0,94104
    Sicily_Messina 0,94091
    Italian_Jew 0,94009
    German_Ashkenazy 0,93948
    Sicily_Agrigento 0,93759
    France_Ashkenazy 0,93655
    Sephardi_Turkey 0,93578
    Sicily_Ragusa 0,93484
    Sephardi_Bulgaria 0,93453
    Sicily_Katania 0,93276
    Romanian_Jew 0,93178
    IT_Calabria 0,93129
    GR_Crete 0,92981
    Sicily_Trapani 0,92955
    Romaniote 0,9295
    Poland_Ashkenazy 0,92865
    Sicily_Palermo 0,92823
    GR_Ikaria 0,92728
    IT_Campania 0,92418
    Latvia_Ashkenazy 0,9216
    IT_Apulia 0,921
    GR_Kythira 0,91786
    AustroHungarian_Ashkenazy 0,91579
    GR_Chios 0,91519
    Malta 0,91458
    GR_Dodecanese 0,91418
    Belarus_Ashkenazy 0,91328
    Cyprus 0,91041
    GR_Kalymnos 0,90938
    IT_Abruzzo 0,90128


    The high similarity to Caltanissetta is something he gets quite often. Also, according to Sikeliot, Messina is one of the most Near Eastern-leaning regions in Sicily. Likewise, not too sure whether this is really meaningful, all that really tells me is that his genetic profile (much like yours) is typically Eastern Mediterranean.
    Messina, Caltanissetta, and Palermo are all more MENA shifted than the rest of Sicily. They're kind of like Cretans with North African, and some of them with less NA input are similar to Calabrians and Dodecanese.

    Messina is like Calabria bleeding over into Sicily.

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  17. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by StillWater View Post
    You have to be careful when using Latvian Jews, as many from Riga are recent arrivals from Ukraine. Romanian Jews are very interesting. I wonder how much they descend from Sephardim, especially given that the rabbinical leadership was originally Sephardic. Memel should be explored more closely. Jews from there considered themselves Yekkes, with some being recent arrivals from Germany. I wonder how much Yekke descent it contributed to other Litvaks.
    That's important info: I knew very little about Latvian Jewish history. The farthest north any of my ancestry comes from is Mir...

    As for Romanian Jews, my impression from reading whatever I can get my hands on is that a substantial majority of Romanian Jewry at the dawn of the mass migration era was in Moldavia, and the vast majority of Moldavian Jews ca. the late 19th century were recent arrivals from Galitzia, Podolia, and Bessarabia.

    That said, unlike in Bucharest, where a distinct Sephardic community survived into modern times, the first Jews of Iasi, who were Sephardic, appear not to have maintained a coherent kehila, which means they were probably absorbed. But looking at the exponential growth of the Moldavian Jewish population over the course of the 19th century, it seems likely that the earliest 16th-17th century community would've amounted to just a drop in the bucket.
    The clock indicates the momentóbut what does eternity indicate?

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  19. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    Here are my father's results in comparison (mostly Ashkenazi, ~25% Krymchak):

     


    Sicily_Caltanisetta 0,94104
    Sicily_Messina 0,94091
    Italian_Jew 0,94009
    German_Ashkenazy 0,93948
    Sicily_Agrigento 0,93759
    France_Ashkenazy 0,93655
    Sephardi_Turkey 0,93578
    Sicily_Ragusa 0,93484
    Sephardi_Bulgaria 0,93453
    Sicily_Katania 0,93276
    Romanian_Jew 0,93178
    IT_Calabria 0,93129
    GR_Crete 0,92981
    Sicily_Trapani 0,92955
    Romaniote 0,9295
    Poland_Ashkenazy 0,92865
    Sicily_Palermo 0,92823
    GR_Ikaria 0,92728
    IT_Campania 0,92418
    Latvia_Ashkenazy 0,9216
    IT_Apulia 0,921
    GR_Kythira 0,91786
    AustroHungarian_Ashkenazy 0,91579
    GR_Chios 0,91519
    Malta 0,91458
    GR_Dodecanese 0,91418
    Belarus_Ashkenazy 0,91328
    Cyprus 0,91041
    GR_Kalymnos 0,90938
    IT_Abruzzo 0,90128


    The high similarity to Caltanissetta is something he gets quite often. Also, according to Sikeliot, Messina is one of the most Near Eastern-leaning regions in Sicily. Likewise, not too sure whether this is really meaningful, all that really tells me is that his genetic profile (much like yours) is typically Eastern Mediterranean.
    I also just want to note that I'm skeptical of these different calculators' ability to reliably indicate a particular "bent" in me. I get very high Red Sea for an Ashkenazi in K13, but relatively low Arabian in K36. Between-group differences might actually mean something if we were working with decently-powered regional samples.
    The clock indicates the momentóbut what does eternity indicate?

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