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Thread: Unique footage of Krymchaks

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by StillWater View Post
    This is the best thread on the site. It should have a billion replies. Why aren't others interested in the most interesting topic? If Agamemnon doesn't post here, it'll be like him not showing up to his own birthday party.
    While I do admire your enthusiasm on this matter (and pretty much shares it), I must say that you should be careful as some of your posts, especially on this thread, gives a vibe of a certain website many of us try to avoid (another example is the your dwelling on phenotype in some of your comments and remarks such as "They truly are the master race."...).

    Just a friendly advice.

    As for the thread itself. Well, Crimean Karaite rejection of their Levantine origin is rooted in the 19th century, on the works of Abraham Firkovich, a Karaite Hacham, who claimed they are the descendants of Israelite teachers who had arrived in Crimea to convert the natives before the Jesus' times, thus not being culpable for the crucifixion of Jesus. He managed to convince the Imperial Russian government that Crimean Karaites cannot be accused in Jesus' crucifixion and they were excluded from the restrictive measures against Jews, which were rampant during the 19th century.

    His work was later also used during WW2, to help persuade the Nazis that Crimean Karaites both in Crimea and in Lithuania are not "racially" Jewish (Rabbinate Jews also assisted in this, to help save life).

    Of course, recent genetics, and especially the in-depth work done by Kevin Brook, have shown that Karaite Jews mostly descend from Levantine Jews with some local admixture similar to other diaspora Rabbinate Jews. Crimean Karaites even share few subclades with Ashkenazi Jews.
    Last edited by Erikl86; 07-22-2019 at 08:20 AM.
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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    While I do admire your enthusiasm on this matter (and pretty much shares it), I must say that you should be careful as some of your posts, especially on this thread, gives a vibe of a certain website many of us try to avoid (another example is the your dwelling on phenotype in some of your comments and remarks such as "They truly are the master race."...).

    Just a friendly advice.

    As for the thread itself. Well, Crimean Karaite rejection of their Levantine origin is rooted in the 19th century, on the works of Abraham Firkovich, a Karaite Hacham, who claimed where the descendants of Israelite teachers who had arrived in Crimea to convert the natives before the Jesus' times, thus not being culpable for the crucifixion of Jesus. He managed to convince the Imperial Russian government that Crimean Karaites cannot be accused in Jesus' crucifixion and they were excluded from the restrictive measures against Jews, which were rampant during the 19th century.

    His work was later also used during WW2, to help persuade the Nazis that Crimean Karaites both in Crimea and in Lithuania are not "racially" Jewish (Rabbinate Jews also assisted in this, to help save life).

    Of course, recent genetics, and especially and in-depth work done by Kevin Brook, have shown that Karaite Jews mostly descend from Levantine Jews with some local admixture similar to Jews. Crimean Karaites even share few subclades with Ashkenazi Jews.
    As do the Krymchaks, the Crimean non-Karaite, Rabbinic (religiously mainstream ) Jews; mixed Romaniote, Ashkenazi,Mizrahhi and Sefaradi

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  5. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    While I do admire your enthusiasm on this matter (and pretty much shares it), I must say that you should be careful as some of your posts, especially on this thread, gives a vibe of a certain website many of us try to avoid (another example is the your dwelling on phenotype in some of your comments and remarks such as "They truly are the master race."...).

    Just a friendly advice.

    As for the thread itself. Well, Crimean Karaite rejection of their Levantine origin is rooted in the 19th century, on the works of Abraham Firkovich, a Karaite Hacham, who claimed where the descendants of Israelite teachers who had arrived in Crimea to convert the natives before the Jesus' times, thus not being culpable for the crucifixion of Jesus. He managed to convince the Imperial Russian government that Crimean Karaites cannot be accused in Jesus' crucifixion and they were excluded from the restrictive measures against Jews, which were rampant during the 19th century.

    His work was later also used during WW2, to help persuade the Nazis that Crimean Karaites both in Crimea and in Lithuania are not "racially" Jewish (Rabbinate Jews also assisted in this, to help save life).

    Of course, recent genetics, and especially and in-depth work done by Kevin Brook, have shown that Karaite Jews mostly descend from Levantine Jews with some local admixture similar to Jews. Crimean Karaites even share few subclades with Ashkenazi Jews.
    I'm familiar where the rejection stems from. You speak Russian, don't you? I recall you mentioning having a Soviet parent in this thread. Phenotypes were brought up on the show itself, the host's as well. I completely contextualized why I brought it up. While you frame this as "friendly advice", you should watch the show first. As for "They truly are the master race", give me a break. Are you telling me you can't tell it's not a serious comment?

  6. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by StillWater View Post
    I'm familiar where the rejection stems from. You speak Russian, don't you? I recall you mentioning having a Soviet parent in this thread. Phenotypes were brought up on the show itself, the host's as well. I completely contextualized why I brought it up. While you frame this as "friendly advice", you should watch the show first. As for "They truly are the master race", give me a break. Are you telling me you can't tell it's not a serious comment?
    Of course I can, and I don't mind talking about phenotype, the advice wasn't from my side, it's just that every now and then, a Moderator comes a long, and they do not actively participate in each and every thread, so your posts might be taken in the wrong context. As for me - bring on full sarcasm and dark humor jokes, I'm Jewish ain't I? (and an Israeli, so we are notoriously blatant).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Of course I can, and I don't mind talking about phenotype, the advice wasn't from my side, it's just that every now and then, a Moderator comes a long, and they do not actively participate in each and every thread, so your posts might be taken in the wrong context. As for me - bring on full sarcasm and dark humor jokes, I'm Jewish ain't I? (and an Israeli, so we are notoriously blatant).
    Regarding phenotype, the Mod would have to not just take my post out of context, but the quote out of the post's context. However, thanks for looking out. If you do what I suspect you might you do: collect DNA samples from Israelis, then you should really get some from Krymchaks. The largest number of them live in Israel. Soon enough, there won't be any.

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  10. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Targum View Post
    As do the Krymchaks, the Crimean non-Karaite, Rabbinic (religiously mainstream ) Jews; mixed Romaniote, Ashkenazi,Mizrahhi and Sefaradi
    Yes, of course. Honestly, the theory that Karaites or Krymchaks are of Khazar ancestry is shaky, at best, even before the genetic evidence, for several reasons:


    • Wrong language subgroup - Karaim, or Leshon Tatar לשון טטר as its called by the Karaim/Krymchaks, belong to the Northwestern Kipchak Turkic family, while Khazar most likely belonged to the Southwestern Oghur Turkic family. - this was highly debated as very few written evidence from Turkic Khazar dialect survived.
    • The fact that the Karaites called their language Leshon Tatar - which shows it was most likely adopted after the arrival of the Tatars to Crimea, so much later than the Khazars.
    • The fact that just like Yiddish or Ladino or Judeo-Arabic - Karaim or Leshon Tatar לשון טטר was written in Hebrew (before the 20th century), but contains Medieval Hebrew words, showing the Karaite Jews of Crimea brought with them knowledge of Hebrew well after Second Temple era (obviously):


     



    • The fact that the Karaim/Leshon Tatar includes substantial Arabic and Persian words, that did not penetrate from nearby Tatars (although some did), showing that the Crimean Karaites' forefathers most likely spoke Judeo-Arabic and Judeo-Iranian languages before settling in Crimea. This also gives merit to Mizrahi admixture among Krymchaks (since Judeo-Iranian and Judeo-Arabic dialects would come to Crimea from Babylonia and Persia).
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    Quote Originally Posted by StillWater View Post
    Regarding phenotype, the Mod would have to not just take my post out of context, but the quote out of the post's context. However, thanks for looking out. If you do what I suspect you might you do: collect DNA samples from Israelis, then you should really get some from Krymchaks. The largest number of them live in Israel. Soon enough, there won't be any.
    Unfortunately, pristine Krymchaks are almost impossible to find in Israel. I think they are all already intermarried, and since the Krymchaks themselves are of "mixed" background - Ashkenazi, Romaniote, Sephardi and Mizrahi - it would be extremely difficult to tell whether or not they are indeed pristine Krymchaks or mixed in Israel (unless one has good Krymchak reference).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Unfortunately, pristine Krymchaks are almost impossible to find in Israel. I think they are all already intermarried, and since the Krymchaks themselves are of "mixed" background - Ashkenazi, Romaniote, Sephardi and Mizrahi - it would be extremely difficult to tell whether or not they are indeed pristine Krymchaks or mixed in Israel (unless one has good Krymchak reference).
    Yes, I guess this is the point about young generation people. But there might be still some older people alive, born before the WW2.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Unfortunately, pristine Krymchaks are almost impossible to find in Israel. I think they are all already intermarried, and since the Krymchaks themselves are of "mixed" background - Ashkenazi, Romaniote, Sephardi and Mizrahi - it would be extremely difficult to tell whether or not they are indeed pristine Krymchaks or mixed in Israel (unless one has good Krymchak reference).
    Like many of the former USSR Jews (excluding Bukhara, Georgian and Mountain from the 70’s, who had almost zero intermarriage) Krymchak couples coming to Israel as two Jews were/are rare but at least in Israel something of the unique Krymchak heritage has a chance to be preserved , if not survive, as they are 100% secular and ignorant of the tradition which once was literate and had influence.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaim_Hezekiah_Medini

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Unfortunately, pristine Krymchaks are almost impossible to find in Israel. I think they are all already intermarried, and since the Krymchaks themselves are of "mixed" background - Ashkenazi, Romaniote, Sephardi and Mizrahi - it would be extremely difficult to tell whether or not they are indeed pristine Krymchaks or mixed in Israel (unless one has good Krymchak reference).
    Like many of the former USSR Jews (excluding Bukhara, Georgian and Mountain from the 70s, who had almost zero intermarriage) Krymchak couples coming to Israel as two Jews were/are rare but at least in Israel something of the unique Krymchak heritage has a chance to be preserved , if not survive, as they are 100% secular and ignorant of the tradition which once was literate and had influence.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaim_Hezekiah_Medini

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