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Thread: UP Syed Results

  1. #361
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    Quote Originally Posted by subzero85 View Post
    Many of the J1's claim descent from a Seyyed male from Mashaad/Tous. I suspect it's this guy: https://hallaur.webs.com/abouthallaur.htm however, note, this is community-provided history. They are primarily Rizvis/Taqvis.

    One of the R-M417's claims descent from a Sabzevari immigrant from Khorasan, but he is R-M417.

    The J-M47 males all have the Jaffrey surname and likely are descendants of one immigrant or a very closely related set of immigrants as they are all DNA relatives with one another. One is related to me maternally. This clade of J2 is traditionally not found in India, but is very well-represented in the Middle East and Central Asia.
    Really appreciate the information bro. I think in a way it explains the broader trend of Arab influence in the Subcontinent region indirectly through Persia. The Syed communities in Iran especially from Khurasan trace their ancestry to the last of the twelve Imams: Taqavis, Naqavis, and Razavis. The Arab areas of Iraq and Sham, especially under the Ummayads and later Abbasids, were traditionally hostile to descendants of the Prophet (Syeds), who moved en-mass to areas of Khurasan and Daylam where there were Alid resistance movements against the rulers. Hugh Kennedy writes about it in great detail in his books, one of them I read: The Early Abbasid Caliphate; a Political History.

  2. #362
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    Well for a time Egypt was ruled by the Fatmids. They were Ismaili but may have had regular twelver Shia's in their empire as well. After their downfall by Salah ad-Din they may have made the tract east to Iraq and Iran. Eventually their descendants may have come from Iran to Awadh.

    Just speculation though.

  3. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biharguy View Post
    Well for a time Egypt was ruled by the Fatmids. They were Ismaili but may have had regular twelver Shia's in their empire as well. After their downfall by Salah ad-Din they may have made the tract east to Iraq and Iran. Eventually their descendants may have come from Iran to Awadh.

    Just speculation though.
    Ismaili branch's history goes way back before the Fatimid time period. Fatimids sent Dais to Multan where there was a govt established in their name. In fact one of the motivation for Abbasid and later Ghaznavid incursions into subcontinent were to remove the Ismailis who they saw as heretics.

  4. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by subzero85 View Post
    Some Amroha Naqvi's came out as I-M233's.

    There are some Rizvi/Taqvis who do have the 'right' Y-Chromosome at J-FGC30416 and their ancestor is from Mashaad/Tous area.

    I know one guy (distant relative) who claims an ancestor from Sabzevar and whose R-M417. He also seems to be associated with the Bilgram Sadaat.
    Is he paternally associated with the Bilgram Saadat? The Sayyids of Bilgrim, Barha, Khairabad, Fatehpur and Haswa all descend from Abul Farah al Wasiti. They're of Zaidi descent.

  5. #365
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kapisa View Post
    Ismaili branch's history goes way back before the Fatimid time period. Fatimids sent Dais to Multan where there was a govt established in their name. In fact one of the motivation for Abbasid and later Ghaznavid incursions into subcontinent were to remove the Ismailis who they saw as heretics.
    To be honest thats not really the case, the Ismail history really only goes back some generations from the fatimid Caliphs. Ismailism only took off after the death of the 11th Imam. The Fatimids and Agha Khans both have lineages which are contested. It does'nt help that there is historical and recorded evidence that they changed their official history (or lineage) a number of times. See this paper for more information : https://www.jstor.org/stable/25684056?seq=1

    On the whole, only the elite of the fatimids were actually Ismailis, I don't think they would have migrated to India except in the fewest of numbers. Most of them would have adhered to the Agha Khans (or the Assasins in earlier times) and if they did migrate it would be to the costal regions like when the Agha khans came they moved to Bombay (Mumbai). Few exceptions would be in the case where a Nawab invited a prominent scholar but I personally would only view Ismaili immigration into UP as being very very recent. Post-1857 at best and by that regards they should be quite few.You're also forgetting that historically twelver Shia's detest the Ismailis probably more than any other sect and they would have the least reason to see Ismailis in their domains, in fact many twelves do not accept Ismaili line as being Alid.

    You're right about Ismaili influence, I read somewhere that the Soomros (or Sumra) were by large Ismailis and they had some influence until the 15th Century.

  6. #366
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    Although equally, perhaps some converts from Ismailis to Twelver Shia found their way to India after leaving the Ismailis who at times could be quite cult-like (especially during the assassin's period).

  7. #367
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    The Aga Khan should do a Y DNA test. I'm curious what his results will be.

  8. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Biharguy For This Useful Post:

     Ahmed Ali (11-30-2020),  subzero85 (12-01-2020)

  9. #368
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    Quote Originally Posted by drobbah View Post
    E-M34 is more common in the Middle East than North Africa...
    So could be Anatolian, Levantine, or Gulf Arab source?

    The E-V12 result is the intriguing one. Which does peak in Southern Egypt.

    I did have grand theories about defeated Fatimids escaping to India at one point, but that seems far-fetched (would have been a costly migration in terms of time/resources back then) and would assume a conversion to more orthodox Twelver Shia along the way.

    I think the defeated Fatimids really did just merge with Egypt's population or escaped to the Levant (such as the Druze community).
    Last edited by subzero85; 11-30-2020 at 01:52 PM.

  10. #369
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    Just a shot in the dark. But if E-M34 is prevalent mostly in the middle east (more than north africa). And of course the Qara Qoyunlu Nawabs of Awadh are originally from that area (North-western of the peninsula). They may have brought with them retainers from that area. And as everyone knows Shias are always great patrons of Sayyids. Burhan ul Mulk was himself a Musawi sayyid too and from Najaf. Of course Gardez implies that this persons ancestor made a presumably notable stay in Afghanistan. So this theory might not completely pan out. But Lucknow got me thinking of the Nawabs. If this family belongs to the Old and famous Gardezi Saadat of Multan then the theory would be least likely. Those gardezis are said to be among the oldest of the saadats. But I think the english themseleves were quite confused when it came to Gardezis, it may be the case that numerous different lineages called themselves Gardezis. Prehaps to bask in the light of the original Gardezis of multan. Although I'm not completely sure about the gardezis to be honest. Prehaps the english were just ill informed.

  11. #370
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    Quote Originally Posted by subzero85 View Post
    So could be Anatolian, Levantine, or Gulf Arab source?

    The E-V12 result is the intriguing one. Which does peak in Southern Egypt.

    I did have grand theories about defeated Fatimids escaping to India at one point, but that seems far-fetched (would have been a costly migration in terms of time/resources back then) and would assume a conversion to more orthodox Twelver Shia along the way.

    I think the defeated Fatimids really did just merge with Egypt's population or escaped to the Levant (such as the Druze community).
    E-M34 ancestors of your match could be from any area of the Middle East tbh, they would need to take a bigy to have a better chance of pinpointing where their Middle Eastern ancestor came from

    The E-V12 individual could be from Egypt (Nubians & Upper Egyptians),Sudan,Levantines or Arabians.

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