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Thread: UP Syed Results

  1. #391
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    Why does the autosomal matter anyway ? Especially if someone doesn't practice endogamy. The hashemite line is a paternal one and surely there wouldn't be any consistency between hashemites from different regions. Especially the oldest saadats are likely to look almost exactly native.

    Our family is from UP originally. We didn't practice endogamy, we were in Punjab for around 100 years. But as a whole have barely any UP left in us.

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  3. #392
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    Quote Originally Posted by royaljoker View Post
    Why does the autosomal matter anyway ? Especially if someone doesn't practice endogamy. The hashemite line is a paternal one and surely there wouldn't be any consistency between hashemites from different regions. Especially the oldest saadats are likely to look almost exactly native.

    Our family is from UP originally. We didn't practice endogamy, we were in Punjab for around 100 years. But as a whole have barely any UP left in us.
    Autosomal doesn't matter. Since being a Syed is paternal then the Y-Haplogroup should only matter. Then again the Y Haplogroup varies between modern Syed men. I've seen everything from E to T Y-Haplogroups for Syed men.

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  5. #393
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    Syed 'honorific' title has unfortunately found new life as a caste in South Asian culture. I've seen people simply assume that it means to have a MENA/Central Asian ancestor. Which is not how it is supposed to be treated.
    Last edited by subzero85; 12-01-2020 at 09:28 PM.

  6. #394
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biharguy View Post
    Autosomal doesn't matter. Since being a Syed is paternal then the Y-Haplogroup should only matter. Then again the Y Haplogroup varies between modern Syed men. I've seen everything from E to T Y-Haplogroups for Syed men.
    Autosomal makeup is irrelevant, but for the subject at hand, Khomeini was sensitive of his grandfather's time in India being used for political attacks against him i.e. portraying him as an outsider or foreigner.

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  8. #395
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    Quote Originally Posted by royaljoker View Post

    Our family is from UP originally. We didn't practice endogamy, we were in Punjab for around 100 years. But as a whole have barely any UP left in us.
    Interesting. Was there a lot of UP > Punjab movement of Syeds historically? I am not a Syed, but sometimes I do wonder whether my ancestral route was West Asia > Afghanistan > Dehli/UP > Punjab. User Raza94, a Punjabi Syed, also had something similar from what I recall.

  9. #396
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    Quote Originally Posted by subzero85 View Post
    Autosomal makeup is irrelevant, but for the subject at hand, Khomeini was sensitive of his grandfather's time in India being used for political attacks against him i.e. portraying him as an outsider or foreigner.
    Thats interesting I had no idea it was used against him. Iqbal is quite liked there so I thought they were favourable of him

  10. #397
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    Quote Originally Posted by subzero85 View Post
    Autosomal makeup is irrelevant, but for the subject at hand, Khomeini was sensitive of his grandfather's time in India being used for political attacks against him i.e. portraying him as an outsider or foreigner.
    It was used to suggest that Khomeini was a British spy and thus anti-Iranian

  11. #398
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    Quote Originally Posted by subzero85 View Post
    Syed 'honorific' title has unfortunately found new life as a caste in South Asian culture. I've seen people simply assume that it means to have a MENA/Central Asian ancestor. Which is not how it is supposed to be treated.
    Well if you read British works like H.A Rose, then it seems like that was mostly the case in Punjab (West Punjab). People working their way up the caste ladder. It seems to have been rife in the frontier provinces (Interesting that the Hyderabad Nawabs match a swati). But really UP, which is so close to Delhi should not suffer the same. In the old sultanate period lineages for courtiers (who most of the U.P. Saadat ended up as) were verified by genealogist. I remember reading that the Barha had their lineages verified by a Central Asian genealogist. Notably the genealogist didn't comment on the genealogy itself but only said that they were sayyids. A similar thing happened to the Sayyid Dynasty, who's emperors belonged to the Barha Saadat. In thareek e mubarak shahi, the author does'nt give the lineage for the Barha emperor, and instead only mentions that as a boy, the father of Khizr Khan had his sayyidness attested to by firasah "vision" of the Saint Jalaluddin Bukhari. This was the alternate way to get a recognised status, if a renowned Saint had confirmed an individual as being Sayyid.

    Islamic scholars give numerous stories of saints who have correctly been able to see the prophetic lineage and point out that a person was or wasn't a sayyid. So if a renown saint attested something it was usually accepted.

    It was often the case that a Hindu convert would join the equivalent caste on the Muslim side, so many converts started calling themselves sayyid, but in actuality these people can be rooted out from their genealogies by South Asian genealogist. That was especially the case in Punjab and U.P. where established saadats make it so much harder. So on the whole I personally don't think that U.P had a lot of fake sayyids. I think most of the fake sayyids can be found in the coastal regions, where a Brahmin could easily claim a more exotic lineage -like ba-alawi - which would prove harder for South Asian genealogists to discredit.

    Another thing is that the publication of saadat pedigrees in my mind (this is my own personal theory) may have created sayyids. People who wished to "upgrade" were able to now somewhat get away by claiming descent from a particular person they read in a book, the barha saadat combated this in a number of way -first by introducing mistakes in their published pedigrees and second through their code words. But I think this form of upgrading was very common in the 20th century. Most of these books were published late 19th century to early 18th century. I think for this reason its important to get proper samples of the U.P - Punjab Saadats. Looking at the pre-partitiotn and post-partition figures on sayyids, sayyids go through the roof after partition. I think most fake sayyids are quite recent for U.P-Punjab
    Last edited by royaljoker; 12-01-2020 at 11:22 PM.

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  13. #399
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahmed Ali View Post
    Interesting. Was there a lot of UP > Punjab movement of Syeds historically? I am not a Syed, but sometimes I do wonder whether my ancestral route was West Asia > Afghanistan > Dehli/UP > Punjab. User Raza94, a Punjabi Syed, also had something similar from what I recall.
    For me, I'm a descendent of Nawab Ali Muhammad Khan. After the second Rohilla war, we went with Nawab Ghulam Muhammad Khan of Rampur to Afghanistan. Stayed until the end of Shah Zaman's reign when we occupied high positions and then returned to India after his fall. Like the Nawabs of Nawabganj we seem to have divided our time between Punjab and U.P until 1857. In which we participated. Then we fled through Nepal to the Punjab Hill region. Stayed there until partition.
    Last edited by royaljoker; 12-01-2020 at 11:20 PM.

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  15. #400
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    Quote Originally Posted by royaljoker View Post
    Thats interesting I had no idea it was used against him. Iqbal is quite liked there so I thought they were favourable of him
    To be honest, those attacks didn't have much sticking power, but it was made by the pro-Pahlavi side as an attack that he wasn't a "real Iranian".

    I'm curious if there are any more cases of "reverse" migrations back to Iran, which would have occurred most likely as a result of the 1857 rebellion for which Awadh paid a heavy price.

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