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Thread: UP Syed Results

  1. #401
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    Quote Originally Posted by royaljoker View Post
    Well if you read British works like H.A Rose, then it seems like that was mostly the case in Punjab (West Punjab). People working their way up the caste ladder. It seems to have been rife in the frontier provinces (Interesting that the Hyderabad Nawabs match a swati). But really UP, which is so close to Delhi should not suffer the same. In the old sultanate period lineages for courtiers (who most of the U.P. Saadat ended up as) were verified by genealogist. I remember reading that the Barha had their lineages verified by a Central Asian genealogist. Notably the genealogist didn't comment on the genealogy itself but only said that they were sayyids. A similar thing happened to the Sayyid Dynasty, who's emperors belonged to the Barha Saadat. In thareek e mubarak shahi, the author does'nt give the lineage for the Barha emperor, and instead only mentions that as a boy, the father of Khizr Khan had his sayyidness attested to by firasah "vision" of the Saint Jalaluddin Bukhari. This was the alternate way to get a recognised status, if a renowned Saint had confirmed an individual as being Sayyid.

    Islamic scholars give numerous stories of saints who have correctly been able to see the prophetic lineage and point out that a person was or wasn't a sayyid. So if a renown saint attested something it was usually accepted.

    It was often the case that a Hindu convert would join the equivalent caste on the Muslim side, so many converts started calling themselves sayyid, but in actuality these people can be rooted out from their genealogies by South Asian genealogist. That was especially the case in Punjab and U.P. where established saadats make it so much harder. So on the whole I personally don't think that U.P had a lot of fake sayyids. I think most of the fake sayyids can be found in the coastal regions, where a Brahmin could easily claim a more exotic lineage -like ba-alawi - which would prove harder for South Asian genealogists to discredit.

    Another thing is that the publication of saadat pedigrees in my mind (this is my own personal theory) may have created sayyids. People who wished to "upgrade" were able to now somewhat get away by claiming descent from a particular person they read in a book, the barha saadat combated this in a number of way -first by introducing mistakes in their published pedigrees and second through their code words. But I think this form of upgrading was very common in the 20th century. Most of these books were published late 19th century to early 18th century. I think for this reason its important to get proper samples of the U.P - Punjab Saadats. Looking at the pre-partitiotn and post-partition figures on sayyids, sayyids go through the roof after partition. I think most fake sayyids are quite recent for U.P-Punjab
    Mir is another title used by Syeds in not just India but also Iran and Central Asia historically. My great grandmother's stepmother was descended from a certain Mir Ekram Gardezi from Kara-Manikpur who married into her stepmother's family in Koth, Ballia district, UP during the mid-19th Century which is hinted at in the district gazetteer. He reportedly convinced the British that Koth had not aided the 1857 rebels, thus it was spared from reprisal attacks.

    There is a village in Azamgarh district called Sarai Miri which belonged to a notable Syed family in the area. My khalujan used to go hunting in the area with his late father.
    Last edited by deuterium_1; 12-02-2020 at 04:33 PM.

  2. #402
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    It's just occurred to me if someone would still Islamically be Sayyid if they do not belong to the specific haplogroup of the Prophet. Because,as far as I know, in Sunni law. In cases of adultry, the child's lineage belongs to the "owner of the bed". Even if the other legitimate father claims it. So in cases of non-paternity events, where a child is not sayyid per Y-Chromosome. Shouldn't they still be considered as sayyid since they belong to the bed. And being Sayyid has always been a spiritual quality more than a material quality. Does anyone know any islamic scholars who's actually given a verdict on DNA testing ? Of course those who usurp the claim would either way not be actual sayyids.

  3. #403
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    Quote Originally Posted by deuterium_1 View Post
    Mir is another title used by Syeds in not just India but also Iran and Central Asia historically. My great grandmother's stepmother was descended from a certain Mir Ekram Gardezi from Kara-Manikpur who married into her stepmother's family in Koth, Ballia district, UP during the mid-19th Century which is hinted at in the district gazetteer. He reportedly convinced the British that Koth had not aided the 1857 rebels, thus it was spared from reprisal attacks.

    There is a village in Azamgarh district called Sarai Miri which belonged to a notable Syed family in the area. My khalujan used to go hunting in the area with his late father.
    Thats true, among other titles Sayyids use Mir.

    But I've found that on the whole Mir is used by Quraysh nobles in India. See the Nizams of Hyderabad, from their earliest days they've used Mir as a personal title due to their descent from Abu Bakr (ra)

    Reading history books like the Later Mughals by William Irivine, once sees this a lot. Names like Mir Haidar Beg Dughlat who killed Nawab Hussain Ali Khan Barha.The Mughal Nobles were hesitant about killing the Sayyid so as to avoid the great sin of killing a prophet's (saw) descendant (just another proof that the Barha's were not as looked down upon as some say- history is quite biased with them) when Mir Haider Beg Dughlat offered to kill him saying "I am a sayyid and so is he" (see page 150, Forgotten Mughals by C.S Cheema)

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  5. #404
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    I think Syeds who don't have the 'right' Y-chromosome are either:

    1.) People taking advantage of it being passed maternally. Legit Syeds do have daughters after all. Again I interpret the term to mean patrilineal descent from Imam Hassan or Imam Hussein.
    2.) People lying about their origins to gain prestige.
    3.) Upper caste converts going to the equivalent "caste"/social group.

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  7. #405
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    Quote Originally Posted by subzero85 View Post
    I think Syeds who don't have the 'right' Y-chromosome are either:

    1.) People taking advantage of it being passed maternally. Legit Syeds do have daughters after all. Again I interpret the term to mean patrilineal descent from Imam Hassan or Imam Hussein.
    2.) People lying about their origins to gain prestige.
    3.) Upper caste converts going to the equivalent "caste"/social group.
    BTW guys, Even in heartland Arabia they have a serious arguments about who the "original Syeds" are. If any think it's settled in L859 then as a matter of a new news, it looks like it's recently challenged by other fellow J-FGC11 subclade. Then we have those claim original Syeds aren't J1 at all.
    Last edited by The Saite; 12-03-2020 at 02:58 PM.
    Autosomal using ancient populations :
    93% Late Period Ancient Egyptian, 4% JOR_EBA, 3% GRC_Minoan_Lassithi (Just another G25's Scaled results with a Suitable fit).

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  9. #406
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Saite View Post
    BTW guys, Even in heartland Arabia they have a serious arguments about who the "original Syeds" are. If you guys think it's settled in L859 then as a matter of a new news, it looks like it's recently challenged by other fellow J-FGC11 subclade.
    Interesting. Would you have a link to this discussion? I want to read more on this.

    Testing all well known descendants should be done to figure this out.

  10. #407
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Saite View Post
    BTW guys, Even in heartland Arabia they have a serious arguments about who the "original Syeds" are. If you guys think it's settled in L859 then as a matter of a new news, it looks like it's recently challenged by other fellow J-FGC11 subclade.
    FGC11 too old unless take Abraham into account.

  11. #408
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    The most well attested Syed family are the Hashemites of Jordan

  12. #409
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biharguy View Post
    Interesting. Would you have a link to this discussion? I want to read more on this.

    Testing all well known descendants should be done to figure this out.
    Sent in private (Reason is, they accuse each others of being frauds or cooperating to make a certain downstream a siyed with forged samples).

    Quote Originally Posted by Jatt1 View Post
    FGC11 too old unless take Abraham into account.
    Didn't mean FGC11 as a whole, but rather another FGC11 downstream competing with L859 (Maybe it was either FGC2 or FGC7? can't recall)
    Last edited by The Saite; 12-02-2020 at 09:10 PM.
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  14. #410
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Saite View Post
    Sent in private (Reason is, they accuse each others of being frauds or cooperating to make a certain downstream a siyed with forged samples).



    Didn't mean FGC11 as a whole, but rather another FGC11 downstream competing with L859 (Maybe it was either FGC2 or FGC7? can't recall)
    Are we talking L859 vs L222.2? Not interested in wading in those discussions, short of testing attested skeletons.

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