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Thread: Isolating pontic steppe admixture in south asians in nmonte

  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    i dont actually differ in opinion to what youve stated here. likely communication related misunderstandings

    1 I stated i do not know much about Iyer/Iyengar history.
    I was under the impression that you were well read(because I would not claim to be, myself) when it came to Tamil Brahmin history, my bad.

    2 I have not heard the Gujarati Nagar Brahmin origin for Iyers that 2891231 has presented in the forum before, in fact i havent read a single source stating that, hence I assume it exists in 281231 subcaste but does not represent the broader Iyer/Iyengar community
    What 26284729292 talked about, was an extrapolation based on G25 data we have(Iyer Average can be modelled very crisply as GBR-Maratha in acceptable proportions).

    He has never mentioned anything to do with his specific subsect/subset(I don't think he himself is aware of his exact origins in that much detail)

    3 the Sangam age comment did not mean that I saying all Tamil Brahmins are descended from Sangam age Brahmins, but rather that they all are not tied to GBR migrations and most Iyers/Iyengars score similar so not im not quite sure what the GBR section scores like
    As mentioned earlier, this is an extrapolation based on current data. As always there is no mutual exclusivity involved, especially since all Brahmins are somewhat similar to one another, it becomes hard to discern between specific(similar) nodes of ancestry.

    4 ive stated multiple times that its obvious the NW is enriched for BMAC-like ancestry, whether via more waves or less mixture with interior AASI
    We are in agreement here.

    ---

    By the way, I have some interesting bits of information that may add to the confusion -

    Absolute distances from member Mahadev Dubey (He seems to be the most reliable UPB sample)
     
    "closestDistances": [
    "Brahmin_Tamil_Nadu:Varun_AGUser: 3.371917",
    "Iyer:IR-1-15: 3.491126",
    "Keral_Namboothiri:Kannur: 3.538047",
    "Iyer:IR-1-11: 3.934845",
    "Iyer:IR-1-12: 3.987020",
    "Iyer:IR-1-4: 4.109653",
    "Iyer:IR-1-17: 4.151459",
    "Iyer:IR-1-7: 4.264103",
    "Iyer:IR-1-8: 4.284158",
    "Iyer:IR-1-6: 4.312280",
    "Iyer:IR-1-10: 4.342102",
    "Iyer:IR-1-1: 4.348727",
    "Kerala_Nambudiri:payyanur: 4.354975",


    there are more(excess southern shifted) Iyers after this, but I've stopped here for a reason.

    None of these Iyers (not even Iyer 15) are less AASI than those two Nambudiris, yet somehow they're still closer (especially compared to Payyanur) to Dubey ji(who is obviously less AASI than everyone he was compared to).
    AASI drift lines are far longer than that between Sintashta and Iran_N, and absolute distances are often skewed towards weight of the AASI vs West Eurasian, but in spite of that this happens.

    Not proper models (but they simply illustrate how Iyer 15 - most northern shifted Iyer is more AASI than both Namboothiris)
    "sample": "Custom:IyerIR115",
    "fit": 3.1827,
    "Kerala_Nambudiri": 87.5,
    "Piramalai": 12.5,

    "sample": "Custom:IyerIR115",
    "fit": 1.9451,
    "Keral_Namboothiri": 92.5,
    "Piramalai": 7.5,

    However, distance from GBR and KP -

    "closestDistances": [
    "Brahmin_Tamil_Nadu:Varun_AGUser: 4.018330",
    "Keral_Namboothiri:Kannur: 4.139018",
    "Iyer:IR-1-15: 4.246947",
    "Iyer:IR-1-4: 4.376603",
    "Kerala_Nambudiri:payyanur: 4.576397",
    (remaining Iyers)


    "closestDistances": [
    "Keral_Namboothiri:Kannur: 6.729426",
    "Brahmin_Tamil_Nadu:Varun_AGUser: 6.909374",
    "Iyer:IR-1-15: 7.175780",
    "Iyer:IR-1-4: 7.292296",
    "Kerala_Nambudiri:payyanur: 7.300935",
    (remaining iyers)

    Varun is on the top because of his low AASI levels(AASI related drift pulls hardest)



    To me this implies the converse of what we have postulated in the last.

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  3. #162
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    Siberian Tatars Tajikistan
    Many different combinations of groups from the north+south can be responsible for the ethnogenesis.

    Code:
    Sample	Details	Fit	Map	Brahmin Uttar Pradesh	Kerala Thiyya
    1	Brahmin_Tamil_Nadu:Varun_AGUser	Modern; 	1.4259 	Open Map	74.17	25.83
    2	Brahmin_Tamil_Nadu_Mixed:26284729292_v3_AGUser		2.2447 	Open Map	50.83	49.17
    3	Iyer:Average		0.7089 	Open Map	50.83	49.17
    Heck I wonder if the southwest coast may be the area of origin since many TamBram like groups such as Nairs exist there, while being rare further east.

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  5. #163
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    Nambudiri Brahmins can be modelled as UP Brahmin or Nepali Brahmin mixed with various South Indian mid castes with realistic fits

    I've shown you in the Kerala thread that Nambudiris overlap with Iyers but fall among the more northern shifted subset of Iyers/Iyengars so i fail to see how your modelling is relevant to the current discussion given its a moot point. I expected to see more distinct scores i agree but Nambudiri genetics do not need GBR to model at all

    As ive said before, GBRs are not associated with Nambudiris, Havyaks or Shivalli Brahmins and Iyers/Iyengars do not share the same origin history which are similar for the former 3 castes. I make no claim to the history of Iyers/Iyengars, i just believe its more likely that the majority of them are of Gangetic Brahmin origin in multiple waves mixed with local Dravidian elites, as occams razor doesnt require a GBR population to migrate.

    I resemble Iyers genetically due to my mix - i have no Iyer ancestry beyond similar nodes of ancients components. Nambudiris score similar to some Iyers, are they the same people or is it more likely they have a similar mix of components?

    Artificial models and realistic models require more than model evidence

    My argument is that BMAC or BMAC-like Namazga ancestry precedes Indo-Aryan ancestry in interior South Asia and is widespread, in some cases probably minimally contributed to by steppe given low steppe levels in areas such as the West of South Asia, not on the origins of Iyers. Distracting from these arguments is just troll food for the viewpoint that BMAC/Turanian ancestry is exclusive to Indo-Aryans and the NW
    Last edited by bmoney; 08-12-2019 at 07:58 AM.

  6. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Censored View Post
    Many different combinations of groups from the north+south can be responsible for the ethnogenesis.

    Code:
    Sample	Details	Fit	Map	Brahmin Uttar Pradesh	Kerala Thiyya
    1	Brahmin_Tamil_Nadu:Varun_AGUser	Modern; 	1.4259 	Open Map	74.17	25.83
    2	Brahmin_Tamil_Nadu_Mixed:26284729292_v3_AGUser		2.2447 	Open Map	50.83	49.17
    3	Iyer:Average		0.7089 	Open Map	50.83	49.17
    Heck I wonder if the southwest coast may be the area of origin since many TamBram like groups such as Nairs exist there, while being rare further east.
    we need to remove the assumption that only certain areas of South Asia received multiple waves of ancestry. Nobody in the SW coast natively scored like they do for the last 4000 years

    Nairs arent native creatures of the SW, even Paniya score Sintashta in models suggesting they received one or two waves at the least from their AASI base even if that is not real Sintashta

  7. #165
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    @Censored @bmoney
    Got any reliable models for Thiyyas? How do they score wrt Velamas or Piramalai for example?
    I don't understand why people keep using non-Tamil groups to model Tamil Brahmins, granted we don't have enough samples on G25 of Non-Brahmin Tamils(only Piramalai - mid caste and Sakilli - Scheduled Caste).
    The substrate Brahmins would have met with in Tamil Nadu is completely different to what they would have met in Kerala. As it has been established on this forum most Malayalis come from either the Levant, Gulf or Gangetic plains - while Tamil castes are Dravidians from Adichallanur.

    Tamil groups like Mudaliars that score close to Brahmin(or Nair)-tier(without the NE Euro), have as small a population as Brahmins do(if not smaller). Most mid-caste Tamils are likely around the Velama-Piramalai-Maratha level
    I've picked out UPB closest to Mahadev Dubey ji for these models as the UPB average is a little dodgy(weird samples). This individual is among the least AASI UPBs-
     
    "sample": "Test1:Iyer",
    "fit": 2.0702,
    "Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh-177e": 59.17,
    "Maratha": 40.83,

    "sample": "Test1:Iyer",
    "fit": 1.6576,
    "Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh-177e": 57.5,
    "Piramalai": 42.5,

    "sample": "Test1:Iyer",
    "fit": 1.6326,
    "Velamas": 54.17,
    "Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh-177e": 45.83,
    "Sakilli": 0,


    However the moment one adds GBR -
    "sample": "Test1:Iyer",
    "fit": 0.6069,
    "Brahmin_Gujarat": 57.5,
    "Velamas": 25.83,
    "Sakilli": 15,
    "Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh-177e": 1.67,

    And standard caste Tamil being ~60% Velama + 40% Sakilli sounds very reasonable to me - almost Piramalai tier. However this model seems to imply that GBR directly entered Tamil-Nadu which in itself is a little iffy, but anyway
    similarly -
    "sample": "Test1:Iyer",
    "fit": 0.8024,
    "Brahmin_Gujarat": 50,
    "Piramalai": 38.33,
    "Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh-177e": 11.67,



    Meanwhile, the substrate in the case of Kerala is (much) less AASI to begin with. We don't, for example, know how much Steppe_MLBA ancestry present in Nairs is of Brahmin origin, as we have already established that cases like your maternal uncle are already more Steppic than most South Indian Brahmins(incl Nambudiris).

    Nairs are around 15% of Kerala, and are the local elites, shudra or not. Nambudiris have a history of mixing with them, we don't know for sure if Nambudiris aren't(using member parasar, as I am forced to perform this run on the standard runner and lack nair/thiyya/nambudiri/namboothiri coords):
     

    "sample": "Keral_Namboothiri:Average",
    "fit": 2.1373,
    "Kerala_Nair": 82.5,
    "Bihar_Brahmin_Bhumihar": 17.5,


    "sample": "Kerala_Nambudiri:Average",
    "fit": 1.8597,
    "Kerala_Nair": 72.5,
    "Bihar_Brahmin_Bhumihar": 27.5,

    or

    "sample": "Keral_Namboothiri:Average",
    "fit": 3.3543,
    "Bihar_Brahmin_Bhumihar": 63.33,
    "Kerala_Thiyya": 36.67,

    "sample": "Kerala_Nambudiri:Average",
    "fit": 2.5976,
    "Bihar_Brahmin_Bhumihar": 58.33,
    "Kerala_Thiyya": 41.67,




    I'd wager that they're somewhere between these two.
    Of course, if you attempted to model Iyers with Nairs in the mix, Iyers would come out 100% Nair because they are identical proportions wise. But since Iyer and Nair have never come into contact at any time in history, it makes no sense to do this. Same with Thiyyas.

    Nambudiris are less AASI than Iyers indeed, but that is completely besides the point here when differences in substrate are accounted for.

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  9. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by client View Post
    @Censored @bmoney
    Got any reliable models for Thiyyas? How do they score wrt Velamas or Piramalai for example?
    I don't understand why people keep using non-Tamil groups to model Tamil Brahmins, granted we don't have enough samples on G25 of Non-Brahmin Tamils(only Piramalai - mid caste and Sakilli - Scheduled Caste).
    The substrate Brahmins would have met with in Tamil Nadu is completely different to what they would have met in Kerala. As it has been established on this forum most Malayalis come from either the Levant, Gulf or Gangetic plains - while Tamil castes are Dravidians from Adichallanur.

    Tamil groups like Mudaliars that score close to Brahmin(or Nair)-tier(without the NE Euro), have as small a population as Brahmins do(if not smaller). Most mid-caste Tamils are likely around the Velama-Piramalai-Maratha level
    I've picked out UPB closest to Mahadev Dubey ji for these models as the UPB average is a little dodgy(weird samples). This individual is among the least AASI UPBs-
     
    "sample": "Test1:Iyer",
    "fit": 2.0702,
    "Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh-177e": 59.17,
    "Maratha": 40.83,

    "sample": "Test1:Iyer",
    "fit": 1.6576,
    "Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh-177e": 57.5,
    "Piramalai": 42.5,

    "sample": "Test1:Iyer",
    "fit": 1.6326,
    "Velamas": 54.17,
    "Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh-177e": 45.83,
    "Sakilli": 0,


    However the moment one adds GBR -
    "sample": "Test1:Iyer",
    "fit": 0.6069,
    "Brahmin_Gujarat": 57.5,
    "Velamas": 25.83,
    "Sakilli": 15,
    "Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh-177e": 1.67,

    And standard caste Tamil being ~60% Velama + 40% Sakilli sounds very reasonable to me - almost Piramalai tier. However this model seems to imply that GBR directly entered Tamil-Nadu which in itself is a little iffy, but anyway
    similarly -
    "sample": "Test1:Iyer",
    "fit": 0.8024,
    "Brahmin_Gujarat": 50,
    "Piramalai": 38.33,
    "Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh-177e": 11.67,



    Meanwhile, the substrate in the case of Kerala is (much) less AASI to begin with. We don't, for example, know how much Steppe_MLBA ancestry present in Nairs is of Brahmin origin, as we have already established that cases like your maternal uncle are already more Steppic than most South Indian Brahmins(incl Nambudiris).

    Nairs are around 15% of Kerala, and are the local elites, shudra or not. Nambudiris have a history of mixing with them, we don't know for sure if Nambudiris aren't(using member parasar, as I am forced to perform this run on the standard runner and lack nair/thiyya/nambudiri/namboothiri coords):
     

    "sample": "Keral_Namboothiri:Average",
    "fit": 2.1373,
    "Kerala_Nair": 82.5,
    "Bihar_Brahmin_Bhumihar": 17.5,


    "sample": "Kerala_Nambudiri:Average",
    "fit": 1.8597,
    "Kerala_Nair": 72.5,
    "Bihar_Brahmin_Bhumihar": 27.5,

    or

    "sample": "Keral_Namboothiri:Average",
    "fit": 3.3543,
    "Bihar_Brahmin_Bhumihar": 63.33,
    "Kerala_Thiyya": 36.67,

    "sample": "Kerala_Nambudiri:Average",
    "fit": 2.5976,
    "Bihar_Brahmin_Bhumihar": 58.33,
    "Kerala_Thiyya": 41.67,




    I'd wager that they're somewhere between these two.
    Of course, if you attempted to model Iyers with Nairs in the mix, Iyers would come out 100% Nair because they are identical proportions wise. But since Iyer and Nair have never come into contact at any time in history, it makes no sense to do this. Same with Thiyyas.

    Nambudiris are less AASI than Iyers indeed, but that is completely besides the point here when differences in substrate are accounted for.
    ill respond in the Kerala thread - i dont think this is relevant to the convo about Namazga like ancestry present before steppe all over South Asia as alluded to in the Damgaard paper

    also FYI Nair is a title in Kerala roughly equivalent to 'Nayak' or 'Naik' - it doesnt necessarily indicate ancestry - the distance between two Nairs from different regions or different subcastes is far higher than the difference between two Iyers, two Khatris, two Guptas - hence the G25 average which mixes different communities with the same title should be broken up based on endogamous communities within it. Some Nairs are basically Thiyyas, some are enriched for Gangetic ancestry and most in between. As a result they are a poor choice as a reference pop. And the title only begins to be mentioned post 700AD

    Nambudiri Brahmins have a history with them in certain subcastes in certain regions. The Nair caste system (like the Newari caste system) has its own sub-communities, check the wiki page if youre interested
    Last edited by bmoney; 08-12-2019 at 10:23 AM.

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