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Thread: Major Jewish Y-lineages

  1. #21
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    Excellent thread !

    Quote Originally Posted by hartaisarlag View Post

    R1a-Z93-Y2619

    Frequency (Penninx): 8.6%
    TMRCA (YFull): 700 CE
    TMRCA (Behar 2017): 250 CE

    Main branches:
    R-BY29826 (TMRCA: Not reported)
    R-FGC18222 (TMRCA: 850 CE)
    - Includes Iraqi Jew (in a downstream clade with Belarusian and Polish Jews with TMRCA: 1725 CE) and Algerian Jew (also in downstream clade)
    R-Y2630 (Main branch; TMRCA: 950 CE)
    - Includes Turkish Jews (in multiple downstream clades)

    Parent branch:
    R-CTS6 (TMRCA: 900 BCE)
    - Basal individual: Persian from Kerman
    Which one is the Levite one? IMO, this entered to Western Jews following the Geonic period of scholars from Babylonia settling in Spain and Ashkenaz, teaching Talmud.
    Check out my Hidden Content
    My Y-DNA: Q-M242 -> Q-L232 -> Q-L275 -> Q-M378 -> Q-Y2016 -> Q-L245 -> Q-FGC1904 -> Q-Y2209 -> Q-Y2225 -> Q-Y2197 -> Q-Y2750 -> Q-YP1004 -> Q-YP3924;
    My mtDNA: K1a1b1a;

    My dad's mtDNA: K2a2a;

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Excellent thread !



    Which one is the Levite one? IMO, this entered to Western Jews following the Geonic period of scholars from Babylonia settling in Spain and Ashkenaz, teaching Talmud.
    I believe all of Y2619, in its three major branches, is Levite, with a very small number of exceptions.

    I'm doubtful about the Babylonian interpretation, because all of the non-Ashkenazi Jews in Y2619 are located way downstream. If anything, I think an Ashkenazi origin for those Mizrahi/Sephardi patrilineages is more parsimonious. The Iraqi Jew has a YFull TMRCA of 375 ybp with a Polish Jew, a Belarusian Jew, and 4 newly uploaded samples (all evidently from Behar 2017).
    Last edited by hartaisarlag; 07-29-2019 at 08:28 PM.
    The clock indicates the momentóbut what does eternity indicate?

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  5. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by hartaisarlag View Post
    I believe all of Y2619, in its three major branches, is Levite, with a very small number of exceptions.

    I'm doubtful about the Babylonian interpretation, because all of the non-Ashkenazi Jews in Y2619 are located way downstream. If anything, I think an Ashkenazi origin for those Mizrahi/Sephardi patrilineages is more parsimonious. The Iraqi Jew has a YFull TMRCA of 375 ybp with a Polish Jew, a Belarusian Jew, and 4 newly uploaded samples (all evidently from Behar 2017).
    I just saw that on YFull myself, and I agree - it makes more sense that an Ashkenazi Jew perhaps made its way to Iraq - perhaps even during Ottoman times.
    Check out my Hidden Content
    My Y-DNA: Q-M242 -> Q-L232 -> Q-L275 -> Q-M378 -> Q-Y2016 -> Q-L245 -> Q-FGC1904 -> Q-Y2209 -> Q-Y2225 -> Q-Y2197 -> Q-Y2750 -> Q-YP1004 -> Q-YP3924;
    My mtDNA: K1a1b1a;

    My dad's mtDNA: K2a2a;

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  7. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by hartaisarlag View Post
    J2a-L210-Y15223 (Z30390)


    Grandparent branch:
    J-Z482 (TMRCA: 2900 BCE)
    - Includes basal Ukrainian (Jew?); Haplotree reports possible basal Ashkenazim (or Eastern Europeans), Italians, Danes, Spaniard, Scot.
    There are two Ukrainians with very likely Jewish surnames and background in the FTDNA J2 project. The branch is labeled as Z482 (xZ478,Z30390), I don't know if posting kit numbers is encouraged here.
    Probably they are the same or related to the haplotree individuals.

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  9. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    I just saw that on YFull myself, and I agree - it makes more sense that an Ashkenazi Jew perhaps made its way to Iraq - perhaps even during Ottoman times.
    Strange, but these phylogenies so often are, at one level or another.

    What I appreciate about them is how clarifying the structure can be. The difference between migration from one community to another, vs. early divergence, for example.
    Last edited by hartaisarlag; 07-29-2019 at 10:11 PM.
    The clock indicates the momentóbut what does eternity indicate?

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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by hartaisarlag View Post
    J2a-L210-Y15223 (Z30390)

    Frequency (Penninx): 4%
    TMRCA (YFull): 550 CE

    Main branches:
    J-BY194993 (TMRCA: 1250 CE)
    J-Y15238 (TMRCA: 1100 CE)
    - Includes several German Jews on YFull (3 Bavarian, 1 Rhineland)
    J-Y24492 (TMRCA: 550 CE)
    - Doesn’t include any German Jews on YFull

    Notes:
    - Nomenclature different in YTree vs. Haplotree.
    - Haplotree identifies possible basal Mexican, Ashkenazim.

    Parent branch:
    J-Y15222 (TMRCA: 600 BCE)
    - Includes basal Lombard, Basilicatan. Haplotree reports possible basal Frenchman and Irishman. No downstream subclades reported (other than Y15223).

    Grandparent branch:
    J-Z482 (TMRCA: 2900 BCE)
    - Includes basal Ukrainian (Jew?); Haplotree reports possible basal Ashkenazim (or Eastern Europeans), Italians, Danes, Spaniard, Scot.
    Uncle branch:
    - J-Z478 (TMRCA: Not reported)
    - Tuscans
    While Y15222 is indeed found in Italians, it is very likely to be Jewish in origin. L210 has been found in Lebanon, Syria and Armenia. Moreover, L210 is a branch of Z467, which was found in two of the MBA Anatolians (labeled Hittite but more likely to be Hattian in origin along the paternal line), while these samples are not L210 (they are Z6271) this helps us anchor L210 in a West Asian context even further. Coupled with the Z489* individual from Armenia, this is one of the branches that is likely to have arrived with KA-derived Khirbet Kerak Ware in the Levant during the EB II to EB III period.

    L210 does have a complex history, however the small description above does not do it justice and might even give the (IMO) false impression that this lineage is bound to represent some form of European introgression, while in fact it is more likely to be Levantine in origin.

    Quote Originally Posted by hartaisarlag View Post
    I believe all of Y2619, in its three major branches, is Levite, with a very small number of exceptions.

    I'm doubtful about the Babylonian interpretation, because all of the non-Ashkenazi Jews in Y2619 are located way downstream. If anything, I think an Ashkenazi origin for those Mizrahi/Sephardi patrilineages is more parsimonious. The Iraqi Jew has a YFull TMRCA of 375 ybp with a Polish Jew, a Belarusian Jew, and 4 newly uploaded samples (all evidently from Behar 2017).
    Just upstream from CTS6 we have F1345, one of the basal clades for this lineage is YP5484 which comprises two Palestinian Muslims from Tzfat/Safed, one of whom is a member on this forum (Mamluk). While Jamal's (Mamluk) family has a tradition of descent from the Mamluks (and more specifically from the Cumans) in-keeping with his family name, the TMRCA of F1345 makes an arrival with the Mitanni quite plausible, it would be wortwhile to keep this in mind. R1a-CTS6 could potentially be much older in the Levant than the scenario envisioned here.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 07-29-2019 at 11:10 PM.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  13. #27
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    Expected to see at least some branches with TMRCA BCE.
    We have discussed earlier that most Roman Empire era Jews later converted to Christianity.
    TMRCA data well confirms it.

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  15. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by artemv View Post
    Expected to see at least some branches with TMRCA BCE.
    We have discussed earlier that most Roman Empire era Jews later converted to Christianity.
    TMRCA data well confirms it.
    All subject to change. With the exception of the Kohanic branch Z18271, I don't know of major ones with BCE TMRCA's.
    The clock indicates the momentóbut what does eternity indicate?

  16. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by hartaisarlag View Post
    Including a downstream pan-North Mediterranean branch not reported in YFull:

    Q1b-L245-Y2200

    Frequency (Penninx): 6.4%
    TMRCA (YFull): 450 CE

    Main branches:
    Q-YP1003 (TMRCA: 600 CE)
    - According to Gurianov 2015, includes Chinese individual
    Q-Y2197 (TMRCA: 700 CE)

    Notes:
    - Structure reported differently in YTree vs. Haplotree vs. GeneticHomeland.
    - YFull identifies basal Scot; Haplotree additionally identifies basal Dane and Englishman.
    - Haplotree identifies a Brazilian, Italian, Greek, and Portuguese under Q-BZ72, a sibling to Q-Y2197, under Q-FGC1933, which is the actual sibling to Q-YP1003.

    Parent branch:
    Q-Y2225 (TMRCA: 500 BCE)
    Sibling branch:
    Q-FGC10659 (TMRCA: 1875 CE)
    - Italians

    Grandparent branch:
    Q-Y2209 (TMRCA: 1400 BCE)
    - Basal individual: Jordanian, Haplotree adds Lebanese, Omani, German (Jew?)
    Uncle branches:
    Q-FGC2020
    - Turk (or Armenian from Turkey?)
    Q-BZ1
    - Includes Italian
    Q-BZ3000 (TMRCA: 750 CE)
    - Includes Montenegrin, Croat
    Q-YP730 (TMRCA: 900 BCE)
    - Includes Chinese, Dutch, German
    Here's a complete branch of Jewish Q from the Jewish Q FTDNA project (Ashkenazi, Mizrahi and Yemenite):



    And here's the tree from Gurianov et al. (2014):



    AJ1 and AJ2 are of course both Ashkenazi Jews.

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ome_Sequencing
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    My mtDNA: K1a1b1a;

    My dad's mtDNA: K2a2a;

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  18. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Here's a complete branch of Jewish Q from the Jewish Q FTDNA project (Ashkenazi, Mizrahi and Yemenite):



    And here's the tree from Gurianov et al. (2014):



    AJ1 and AJ2 are of course both Ashkenazi Jews.

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ome_Sequencing
    I'm going off the most recent FTDNA Haplotree, which seems most current and detailed. AFAIK nobody's written about BZ72.
    The clock indicates the momentóbut what does eternity indicate?

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