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Thread: Major Jewish Y-lineages

  1. #481
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    Quote Originally Posted by hartaisarlag View Post
    I posted above about why I think this is a spurious generalization based on a small handful of lines (R-FGC8564, J-FGC5206?, R-V3476?). All evidence suggests that the main early medieval sources for the earliest Ashkenazi population were from Italy and France, and prior to that, late classical/late antique Italy had by far the largest Jewish population in the Western Roman Empire.

    Late classical/late antique divergences between Ashkenazim and Iberians/Hispanics/Sephardim, which will soon prove to be even commoner than Avotaynu's people report, cannot be assumed to mean an origin of the Ashkenazi branch among either born Jews or converts in Iberia.

    Rather, all it means is that Ashkenazim and Sephardim derive from common source populations. One might've been in late antique/early medieval Iberia; but I highly doubt it was the main one.
    If only they could get samples from late antiquity Southern/Eastern France and Rhineland Germany. Nevertheless an Iberian or Iberianlike component does begin to seem possible. I know this might be anecdotal but I and other AJs seem to consistently score Iberian on G25 derived calculators, even when a French or North Italian option is available. Maybe it's a mixture of the two?

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  3. #482
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    Thought I'd bring something into the discussion that's beginning to click for me. The sources I've trawled for information on the early Ashkenazi community discuss the mishpaḥot meyuḥasot of the early SHUM communities, most of them immediately descended from 10th-early 11th century rabbinic luminaries. Per Grossman, Dan, and Frishman, these prolific extended families, which probably represented the pioneering nucleus of 10th-early 11th century Mainz and Worms, comprised the political and religious leadership of the Jewish Rhineland on the eve of the 1096 massacres, and retained much of their distinction in their aftermath.

    Unfortunately I don't have full access to Grossman's Hakhmei Ashkenaz Ha-rishonim right now, but in one summary page that I have, he mentions 5 such families from Mainz: the descendants of Kalonymus (from Lucca, originally), the descendants of Makhir (ben Yehuda; the brother of Rabbeinu Gershom; from Metz, originally), the descendants of Abun (from Le Mans), the descendants of Yehuda ben Meir HaKohen "Leontin" (name could be French, Occitano-Provençal, or Italian; no consensus), and the descendants of David HaLevi (I can't find anything). These families apparently also pioneered the Jewish settlement of Speyer later in the 11th century.

    He also adds for Worms the following unrelated families: descendants of Yitzhak HaLevi (originally from Vitry(en-Perthois?)), descendants of Shlomo ben Shimshon (also originally from Vitry), and, tentatively, descendants of Moshe ben Alexander (can't find anything).

    Why do I bring this up?

    It stands to reason that these families would've had an outsize impact on the early pool of Ashkenazi Y chromosomes, and very well might be identified with the main parts of some of the larger, later Ashkenazi Y branches (think, for instance: J-L816>ZS2728, J-L556, E-Y14891>Y16781>Y17225>Y17227, G-Y12975). It would be very difficult, if not impossible, to draw direct connections between these families and specific branches, of course.

    Worth noting, though, that there's a Kohen branch in here—Yehuda ben Meir HaKohen "Leontin"—and two Levite ones (those of David HaLevi and Yitzhak HaLevi). I want to playfully conjecture a connection to the older sub-branch of the mostly, but not exclusively Ashkenazi kohen branch, J-Y5400/S12192—that is, J-Y5399/BY68, for which YFull estimates a TMRCA of 1100 ybp. Though there are conflicting dates for Leontin's date of birth, the fact that his most famous disciple Gershom appears to have been born in 960 favors a date in the first half of the 10th century.

    Also worth noting the presence of two Levite families. What I'll say is that the assumption we've been making that R-Y2619 has a non-Rhineland origin would require us to believe that both of these two prominent 11th century Rhineland Levite families were totally dwarfed by a later Levite line that entered Ashkenaz farther east. While nothing's impossible (especially in light of the carnage of 1096), I find this somewhat hard to believe. A survey of Alsatian/German/Swiss Levites might help us get to the bottom of this.

    I'd also be curious to know from anyone familiar with the Jews of Frankfurt project, or any other trustworthy Ashkenazi pedigrees, if any contemporary lines can claim a credible connection to any of these ancestors/families. Any other thoughts welcome.
    Last edited by hartaisarlag; 04-16-2020 at 12:30 AM.
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  5. #483
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    And a follow-up here: does anyone know of other "typically Ashkenazi Levite" branches besides R-Y2619? We know for example that J-Y33795 and J-FGC4975 are associated with Kohanim (maybe I'm missing others), not just J-Z18271 (>S12192). One old Rhineland Levite line which appears to have spread to both France and Eastern Europe is R-L408. Not sure all or most members identify as Levites, but it seems a fair share do.
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  7. #484
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    Thanks for this summary listing. I'm studying the J1-ZS227 sub-tree due to my ggf's J1-S15852 (which is in the J1-Y31161 branch mentioned above). There is an interesting ancient sample which has been commented upon before: JK2134 (dated 776-569 calBC: DOI: 10.1038/ncomms15694 ) which is has been called Y1-YSC234 (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-jk2134/). YSC234 is the 2xggp to ZS227 and of course the hg call is not the result of complete hg testing, meaning that JK2134 could well be within the ZS227 sub-tree. This sample is from a cemetery in Abusir-el Meleq (about 8 miles south of Cairo along the Nile). Note that the dates of the sample coincide with both the Assyrian conquest of Samaria (ca 721) and the Babylonian conquest of Judea (ca 587) which leaves open the possibility that this person (JK2134) is a Hebrew living in exile in Egypt after one of these events (e.g., according to Jeremiah and others there were Jews who fled the 1st Temple's destruction to Egypt, a rival of both the Assyrians and Babylonians). It would be interesting to try to place JK2134 in the ZS227 sub-tree. He could be as far as downstream as J1-Y5400 which would put him in post-CMH territory. Any thoughts on how to drill deeper on JK2134's hg? Of related interest is the fact that if J1-ZS227 is the lineage of Aharon the original Cohanic priest, then this JK2134 is part of that lineage, either upstream or downstream. From the biblical point of view, since Aharon along with the rest of the Hebrews came to the Levant after the Hebrew people had spent a 430 year sojourn in Egypt, this would support and upstream cousinship between JK2134 and Aharon from those days. My main point being that there is the possibility of connecting JK2134 to the current cohanic priestly line represented by the J1-ZS227-Y5400 sub-tree.

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  9. #485
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    Quote Originally Posted by PureNonsense View Post
    Thanks for this summary listing. I'm studying the J1-ZS227 sub-tree due to my ggf's J1-S15852 (which is in the J1-Y31161 branch mentioned above). There is an interesting ancient sample which has been commented upon before: JK2134 (dated 776-569 calBC: DOI: 10.1038/ncomms15694 ) which is has been called Y1-YSC234 (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-jk2134/). YSC234 is the 2xggp to ZS227 and of course the hg call is not the result of complete hg testing, meaning that JK2134 could well be within the ZS227 sub-tree. This sample is from a cemetery in Abusir-el Meleq (about 8 miles south of Cairo along the Nile). Note that the dates of the sample coincide with both the Assyrian conquest of Samaria (ca 721) and the Babylonian conquest of Judea (ca 587) which leaves open the possibility that this person (JK2134) is a Hebrew living in exile in Egypt after one of these events (e.g., according to Jeremiah and others there were Jews who fled the 1st Temple's destruction to Egypt, a rival of both the Assyrians and Babylonians). It would be interesting to try to place JK2134 in the ZS227 sub-tree. He could be as far as downstream as J1-Y5400 which would put him in post-CMH territory. Any thoughts on how to drill deeper on JK2134's hg? Of related interest is the fact that if J1-ZS227 is the lineage of Aharon the original Cohanic priest, then this JK2134 is part of that lineage, either upstream or downstream. From the biblical point of view, since Aharon along with the rest of the Hebrews came to the Levant after the Hebrew people had spent a 430 year sojourn in Egypt, this would support and upstream cousinship between JK2134 and Aharon from those days. My main point being that there is the possibility of connecting JK2134 to the current cohanic priestly line represented by the J1-ZS227-Y5400 sub-tree.
    Agamemnon has covered this before. It is certainly an interesting thing to note.
    הִנְנִי֩ מֵבִ֨יא אוֹתָ֜ם מֵאֶ֣רֶץ צָפ֗וֹן

    Jeremiah 31

    Other potential and/or likely recent lineages: J-L816, J-PF5456, E-FGC56023

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  11. #486
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    Quote Originally Posted by hartaisarlag View Post
    Revisiting this: YF71301, newly uploaded to YFull, is labeled Gümüşhane, so he must be one of those. At least for now, he's stuck among the diverse lot of J-Z18271*s. Any idea who this one is, if he's one of the ones you mentioned above? Doesn't look like he falls into any of the major Ashkenazi branches.
    Hello everyone,
    I'm YF71301, one of those Greek Pontians from Gümüşhane, which we call Argyropolis (Silver city). This region in ancient times was part of various empires and had different names (Chaldia). For example, in the eighth century BC, this territory was part of the Medes. At that time, the Assyrians captured the Jews from Jerusalem and settled them in the cities of Media. However, the relocation could occur in later times. There were many missionaries in the region during the period of Christianization. Our ancestors could be jewelers moved to the ancient gold and silver center. Finally, we can be descendants of Romaniots, I think this is a more likely version. STR's are not ready yet, so I can't compare it with the data Family Tree DNA, but I see Koens, Cahns, as my fifth cousins.
    The recent centuries were not easy for our families; in the 19th century our ancestors were forced to flee the Ottoman Empire. In the USSR, the Greeks also had a hard times, most of them were subjected to Stalin's deportation. Not the best conditions for preserving historical memory.

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  13. #487
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polant View Post
    Hello everyone,
    I'm YF71301, one of those Greek Pontians from Gümüşhane, which we call Argyropolis (Silver city). This region in ancient times was part of various empires and had different names (Chaldia). For example, in the eighth century BC, this territory was part of the Medes. At that time, the Assyrians captured the Jews from Jerusalem and settled them in the cities of Media. However, the relocation could occur in later times. There were many missionaries in the region during the period of Christianization. Our ancestors could be jewelers moved to the ancient gold and silver center. Finally, we can be descendants of Romaniots, I think this is a more likely version. STR's are not ready yet, so I can't compare it with the data Family Tree DNA, but I see Koens, Cahns, as my fifth cousins.
    The recent centuries were not easy for our families; in the 19th century our ancestors were forced to flee the Ottoman Empire. In the USSR, the Greeks also had a hard times, most of them were subjected to Stalin's deportation. Not the best conditions for preserving historical memory.
    Polant, thanks so much for writing. I've been on a bus through Gümüşhane in the winter—it's some stark country. Sad that so much of its deep history has been erased.

    I am also tentatively inclined to believe that your direct Y-line ancestors were Romaniotes/Greek-speaking Jews, who we also know made a minor contribution to Eastern Ashkenazim.

    Who did you test with? When you say that you see Koens and Cahns as fifth cousins, is that on a list of Y matches, or are you autosomally connected to them?

    Interestingly, you're one of the few remaining individuals stuck at J-Z18271*. J-Y3088 > Z18271 is unique among Jewish branches; it's found in pretty much every Jewish community (Ethiopia and India excepted, at least for now), and its some of its sub-branches date to ancient and classical Israel, and probably represent different diasporic spreads. What's clear is that you share a direct male-line ancestor with all of them, in all likelihood dating back to the priesthood in early-mid-1st millennium BCE Jerusalem.
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  15. #488
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    Quote Originally Posted by hartaisarlag View Post
    Who did you test with? When you say that you see Koens and Cahns as fifth cousins, is that on a list of Y matches, or are you autosomally connected to them?
    My WGS was made by Dante Labs, then Yseq created BAM for YFull. I uploaded my data to FTDNA, and found that I'm autosomally connected to Solomon Koen, romaniot - 5th cousin, my 4th cousin is David Auerbach, and they are both J-M267. Jack Cahn (not the real surname of his father, but his mother is Cohen) is connected to Auerbach, as many other Ashkenazim in my list - Levin, Lederman, Katson etc.

    My second cousin Kotanov (son of my second aunt) is at FTDNA and also is Z18271. Kotanidis are from the same town near Argyropolis (Shiran), we don't have any memory about our genetic kin relationships, that's why Kotanidis could merry my aunt (Polant, Polandov). The same is true about other Greek families in our small place (Iordan, Stoforand). It was a big surprise to find out that we all have common ancestor, Z18271. However, not so big as to discover our Jewish roots

    Interestingly, Kotanov has no connection to Auerbach and all Ashkenazim I am connected with. Solomon Koen is not his match too, but they have me and Ioanidou, Ioanidis (most likely Greek Jews) in common. Maybe the reason is that he has only 37 markers...

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  18. #490
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polant View Post
    My WGS was made by Dante Labs, then Yseq created BAM for YFull. I uploaded my data to FTDNA, and found that I'm autosomally connected to Solomon Koen, romaniot - 5th cousin, my 4th cousin is David Auerbach, and they are both J-M267. Jack Cahn (not the real surname of his father, but his mother is Cohen) is connected to Auerbach, as many other Ashkenazim in my list - Levin, Lederman, Katson etc.

    My second cousin Kotanov (son of my second aunt) is at FTDNA and also is Z18271. Kotanidis are from the same town near Argyropolis (Shiran), we don't have any memory about our genetic kin relationships, that's why Kotanidis could merry my aunt (Polant, Polandov). The same is true about other Greek families in our small place (Iordan, Stoforand). It was a big surprise to find out that we all have common ancestor, Z18271. However, not so big as to discover our Jewish roots

    Interestingly, Kotanov has no connection to Auerbach and all Ashkenazim I am connected with. Solomon Koen is not his match too, but they have me and Ioanidou, Ioanidis (most likely Greek Jews) in common. Maybe the reason is that he has only 37 markers...
    A bit perplexed by the autosomal connections to Ashkenazim, but then again, we didn't expect *any* of this Jewish—Pontic connection.

    I can only find one SNP-confirmed Z18271 Pontic Greek at FTDNA, Ikonomov—but maybe others just aren't in any projects? Either way, it's obvious that there are plenty of other families whose STR values make it all but certain. It'd be great if more of these folks, if they've done Big Y, could upload to YFull so that we could get a better sense of how far back your cluster goes.
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