Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 22

Thread: The territories of the Somali clans, and their historic migrations and wanderings.

  1. #11
    Registered Users
    Posts
    34
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Somali

    Somalia
    Quote Originally Posted by VytautusofAukstaitija View Post
    To have a good idea of what Somalis of this period looked like - prior to the heavy cultural Arabization that took place in the later colonial period throughout the Somali territories - here are photos from the period in focus:
    we got more islamic, we've had some cultural influences from the arabs but nothing too drastic to call it heavy arabization tbh we still have our language and cushitic somali culture but with some outside influences mostly due to trade, we're a predominantly muslim nation so i guess some would confuse islamic elements of the culture with arab culture
    Last edited by afbarwaaqo; 08-21-2019 at 07:03 AM.

  2. #12
    Registered Users
    Posts
    18

    Quote Originally Posted by afbarwaaqo View Post
    we got more islamic, we've had some cultural influences from the arabs but nothing too drastic to call it heavy arabization tbh we still have our language and cushitic somali culture but with some outside influences mostly due to trade, we're a predominantly muslim nation so i guess some would confuse islamic elements of the culture with arab culture
    Yea it seems Ethiopians and Somalis have similar cultures despite one being Muslim and the other Christian.
    Last edited by Ellerbe; 08-22-2019 at 08:51 AM.

  3. The Following User Says Thank You to Ellerbe For This Useful Post:

     afbarwaaqo (08-23-2019)

  4. #13
    Registered Users
    Posts
    34
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Somali

    Somalia
    Quote Originally Posted by Ellerbe View Post
    Yea it seems Ethiopians and Somalis have similar cultures despite one being Muslim and the other Christian.
    true you'll find linguistic and cultural similarities between us and ethiopian groups such as the oromo

  5. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to afbarwaaqo For This Useful Post:

     Ellerbe (08-23-2019),  NetNomad (09-09-2019)

  6. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Ellerbe View Post
    Yea it seems Ethiopians and Somalis have similar cultures despite one being Muslim and the other Christian.
    Not at all - if by Ethiopian you mean Ethiosemites/Habesha, there is no such similarity; they are very dissimilar anyway you look at it. Are Germans and Kazakhs similar? They must be by whatever standard you're qualifying that statement with.

    Culturally the two peoples couldn't be more opposite. If you want, I can break down the obvious:

    Subsistence-wise, Ethiosemites/Habeshas are intensive farmers with a few Highland agropastoralists who engage more heavily herding sheep and goat and cattle, more similar to migration period continental Germanics - with an exception for the Tigre. Somalis? the complete opposite - a purebred wholly nomadic folk. Their existence relies solely on herding camels. Farming was historically near non-existent, and a pastoral-heavy camel agropastoralism is only notable in assimilated Rahanweyn groups and in Somalis near Mount Karamada and the western reaches of the Ahmar mountains.

    When it comes to primary identities and kinship, Ethiosemites/Habeshas identified more so with their immediate family lineage and village and general locality, whereas Somalis exclusively identified with their immediate subclan and the clan/subclan with little care for any locality and geography. Ethiosemite/Habesha identities are much more land-tied, and kinship focuses on immediate familial and lineage connections, than the solely lineage and clan focused Somali system. They are more patrilocal.

    In regards to religion/spirituality, Ethiosemites/Habeshas are largely followers of a local form of Christianity infused with earlier Judiac and Ethiosemitic and a variety of other spiritual influences. Somalis are a Muslim people, whose non-Islamic influences are largely from the preceding presumably Waaqite faith of the Samaal peoples and maybe a residual form of Christianity. Only similarity? the pseudo-Waaqite/early Erythrean religious influences found in Ethiosemites/Habeshas and the unorthodox emphasis on sainthood, though this may not solely be from a common source in both peoples.

    And finally, concerning social intercourse, Somalis are extremely egalitarian, and a social hierarchy of any sorts simply does not exist (outside the Madhibaan) and power is gained through admiration and respect. Ethiosemites/Habeshas on the other hand are much more similar to the Japanese and Sino-sphere, placing a huge empahsis on rank and heirarchy and respect for superiors. Social mobility is a free for all within Somalis, whereas it is much more traditionally rigid and filled with regulatory items within Habesha societies. Only similarity? having outcaste groups, usually associated with blacksmithing and other handicraft, and hunting, and this is not feature that necessarily shows any recent connection with Ethiosemites/Habeshas, as this custom is also found in Tuareg, Masai, Oromo and even Arabs to a degree.

    We can even go into difference in looks, as it's quite clear that Somalis are much more similar phenotypically and culturally to the Rendille, Masais, Arsi Oromos, and maybe even the Toubou and Congolese Banyamulenge (Banyamulenge I've seen online) than your average Amhara, Tigray, or Gurage. Do not act ignorant of what was the ~4,000+ years of heavy admixture from a variety of populations into the Habesha, and the accompanying mass cultural and ethno-lingustic shifts and adaptations that are not found in Somalis at all, that have made Somalis and Ethiosemites/Habeshas very diverged phenotypically.

    They speak a Semitic language with variety of Erythrean/Cushitic and Omotic substrates, influenced by a Ethiopian sprachbund that Somalis are outside of, and are largely relegated to a highland plateau as rural farmers engaged in intensive small-plot agriculture while living in villages, and use their locality and immediate familial and lineage as their more primary form of kinship and immediate identity. Somalis are by far mostly a lowland people who lifestyles are the complete opposite of that of the Ethiosemites/Habesha - they were almost all complete nomads who rely solely on their camel herds to survive, living in mobile tents and traversing 100's of miles of wide open plains and savannah. Their kingdoms and states were ruled by leaders who were merely first amongst equals, something that is not really seen Ethiopian/Habesha sociopolitics.

    For most of their history, Ethiosemites/Habeshas toiled as land-tied Highland peasant farmers under several layers of autocratic rulers, starting from the local lord, a provincial ruler, and finally the Ethiopian/Aksumite Emperor/King. Somalis in comparison lived in a all-is-equal society, where everyone herded camels in addition to some goats and sheep, and moved across huge swaths of open land in unending migrations. No one was higher than another, and because everyone was equal (outside of the Madhibaan), conflict was near constant. It was a highly militarized egalitarian nomadic society, and would be completely alien to a rural agrarian or agropastoralist hierarchical one like those of Ethiosemites/Habeshas.

    Even genetically, the Somali-Ethiosemite/Habesha connection is very overblown. Ethiosemites/Habeshas only share around ~60-65% of their ancestry with Somalis. It's very evident when their biggest ydna is J1-P56 and A3b2-M118, with the rest being a mix bag of all sorts of E-M35, such as E-M34 and basal E-M215 (E-M281), E-V38, J2 and traces of B and E2.

    Whichever way you view it, Ethiosemites/Habeshas and Somalis are polar opposites, whether it is culturally, subsistence-wise, sociopolitically, behaviorally, and to a large degree even when it comes to looks.

    If you have seen them, it's hard to mix up a Habesha and Somali, as they really don't look alike. I've met far more Masai and Chadians I've confused for a Somali than I have a Habesha - even the dark ones. The stereotypes of a large phenotypic difference between Somalis and Ethiosemites/Habeshas are largely true. Through physical anthropology may not be the best field to cite, but this gulf in appearance between Ethiosemites/Habeshas and Somalis was so sharp that many physical anthropologists thought the two groups didn't have much of a common origin whereas others simple saw it that they belonged to 2 separately diverged subgroups, with most of the belief that Ethiosemites/Habeshas were heavily shaped by admixture with Bronze Age Semitic groups, whereas Somalis and Borana Oromos were thought to be representatives of a more pure "Hamitic" type. You're average Somali would be less detected in Kigali or amongst the Masai than in Mekelle, Keren, or Butajira.

    Relative to Africa-Middle East as a whole, how do Somalis and Habeshas seem similar from any major vantage point? even with the entirety of Africa considered, that stands as a very odd statement.

  7. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to VytautusofAukstaitija For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (09-07-2019),  Kulin (09-07-2019)

  8. #15
    Registered Users
    Posts
    18

    :o ok ok somalis and their neighbors have nothing at all to do with one another, am sorry if i offended you.

  9. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by VytautusofAukstaitija View Post
    And finally, concerning social intercourse, Somalis are extremely egalitarian, and a social hierarchy of any sorts simply does not exist (outside the Madhibaan) and power is gained through admiration and respect. Ethiosemites/Habeshas on the other hand are much more similar to the Japanese and Sino-sphere, placing a huge empahsis on rank and heirarchy and respect for superiors. Social mobility is a free for all within Somalis, whereas it is much more traditionally rigid and filled with regulatory items within Habesha societies.
    Is this true for the historical kingdoms/sultanates in Somali territory? I understand these had other ethnicities in them, but don't know much about their social structure.

  10. #17
    Registered Users
    Posts
    221
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by VytautusofAukstaitija View Post
    We can even go into difference in looks, as it's quite clear that Somalis are much more similar phenotypically and culturally to the Rendille, Masais, Arsi Oromos, and maybe even the Toubou and Congolese Banyamulenge (Banyamulenge I've seen online) than your average Amhara, Tigray, or Gurage. Do not act ignorant of what was the ~4,000+ years of heavy admixture from a variety of populations into the Habesha, and the accompanying mass cultural and ethno-lingustic shifts and adaptations that are not found in Somalis at all, that have made Somalis and Ethiosemites/Habeshas very diverged phenotypically.

    [....]

    If you have seen them, it's hard to mix up a Habesha and Somali, as they really don't look alike. I've met far more Masai and Chadians I've confused for a Somali than I have a Habesha - even the dark ones. The stereotypes of a large phenotypic difference between Somalis and Ethiosemites/Habeshas are largely true. Through physical anthropology may not be the best field to cite, but this gulf in appearance between Ethiosemites/Habeshas and Somalis was so sharp that many physical anthropologists thought the two groups didn't have much of a common origin whereas others simple saw it that they belonged to 2 separately diverged subgroups, with most of the belief that Ethiosemites/Habeshas were heavily shaped by admixture with Bronze Age Semitic groups, whereas Somalis and Borana Oromos were thought to be representatives of a more pure "Hamitic" type. You're average Somali would be less detected in Kigali or amongst the Masai than in Mekelle, Keren, or Butajira.

    Relative to Africa-Middle East as a whole, how do Somalis and Habeshas seem similar from any major vantage point? even with the entirety of Africa considered, that stands as a very odd statement.
    I largely disagree with the above post.

    I have traveled to Kenya and have seen many of those ''Nilo-Hamitic'' tribes up close. They look nothing like Somalis, only a superficial 'East African' overlap but that's about it. I would never confuse any of them for a Somali in real life, even if they are dressed in modern clothing, which many were in urban areas of Kenya. By this I mean groups like the Turkana, Kalanejin, Maasai etc. They look distinctly ''Kenyan'' (especially because of their Bantu admixture).

    About that Kigali comment, also hilarious wrong, the vast majority of the residents in Kigali are Hutu. The Tutsi are significantly in the minority and most Hutus look like Lake Victoria Bantus who are 70%+ Niger-Congo in ancestry. Most ethnic Somalis can more easily blend into Asmara over Kigali.

    All these groups you have mentioned, except for the Rendille, have substantially more distant genome-wide ancestry from Somalis vs Habeshas.

    As for the cultural commentary, Somalis traded and were in direct contact with highland Ethiopians more vs those tribes you mentioned of which they never heard of until recently.

    PS: I am Somali.

  11. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to NetNomad For This Useful Post:

     drobbah (09-12-2019),  Ellerbe (09-10-2019),  sum1 (09-10-2019),  transqabil (09-17-2019)

  12. #18
    Registered Users
    Posts
    221
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by VytautusofAukstaitija View Post
    Somalis in comparison lived in a all-is-equal society, where everyone herded camels in addition to some goats and sheep, and moved across huge swaths of open land in unending migrations. No one was higher than another, and because everyone was equal (outside of the Madhibaan), conflict was near constant.
    Another falsity.

    The Sab (Maay) Somalis have been farmers since time immemorial and the Maxaa Somalis likely only recently (in the grand scheme of things) switched over to strict nomadism prior to being farmers and cattle herders after the introduction of the camel.

    Moreover, Somalis have a class system and it is far from an egalitarian society. It is probably one of the most unequal societies on the planet. Do not confuse anarchy with social equality. Not to forget that slavery and slave trading was more widespread in Somalia than in Ethiopia.
    Last edited by NetNomad; 09-09-2019 at 11:38 PM.

  13. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to NetNomad For This Useful Post:

     drobbah (09-12-2019),  Ellerbe (09-10-2019),  transqabil (09-17-2019)

  14. #19
    Registered Users
    Posts
    420
    Sex
    Omitted
    Nationality
    Canadian
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-V32
    mtDNA (M)
    L0a1*

    Somaliland Ethiopia Arab League Adal Sultanate
    Quote Originally Posted by NetNomad View Post
    I largely disagree with the above post.

    I have traveled to Kenya and have seen many of those ''Nilo-Hamitic'' tribes up close. They look nothing like Somalis, only a superficial 'East African' overlap but that's about it. I would never confuse any of them for a Somali in real life, even if they are dressed in modern clothing, which many were in urban areas of Kenya. By this I mean groups like the Turkana, Kalanejin, Maasai etc. They look distinctly ''Kenyan'' (especially because of their Bantu admixture).

    About that Kigali comment, also hilarious wrong, the vast majority of the residents in Kigali are Hutu. The Tutsi are significantly in the minority and most Hutus look like Lake Victoria Bantus who are 70%+ Niger-Congo in ancestry. Most ethnic Somalis can more easily blend into Asmara over Kigali.

    All these groups you have mentioned, except for the Rendille, have substantially more distant genome-wide ancestry from Somalis vs Habeshas.

    As for the cultural commentary, Somalis traded and were in direct contact with highland Ethiopians more vs those tribes you mentioned of which they never heard of until recently.

    PS: I am Somali.
    His idea of there being a wide difference in phenotype between Habesha and Somalis is laughable.There are plenty of Somalis I have seen including myself that have been mistakened by Habeshas,foreigners very familiar with Horners and Somalis as a Habesha/generic Ethiopian and always assume I am lying when I say I'm Somali.Surprisingly the people who correctly guess my ethnicity are the muslim Oromos lol

    I remember when my cousin and I visited Berbera, the locals mistakened us as Yemenis (many there are from Hadhramawt) and I'm not joking.My cousin who is only two shades lighter than me but compared to the residents who were black as coal because of the extreme heat.According to the residents we interacted with we seemed to look like foreigners lmfao.I even remember meeting a very young attractive Somali girl from Hargeisa at the Berbera beach and she was much lighter than me.People need to understand that Somalis can have wide range of phenotypes and can depend on which region they hail from.



    *Attached a baby faced photo of myself*
    My Father's K15
    76.5% Somali + 23.5% Ethiopian_Wolayta @ 2.52
    94.6% Somali + 5.4% Ethiopian_Ari_cultivator @ 2.58


    Mother's K15

    98.2% Somali + 1.8% Lebanese_Druze @ 1.87
    98.1% Somali + 1.9% Tunisian_Jewish @ 1.91
    98.1% Somali + 1.9% Palestinian @ 1.91
    97.8% Somali + 2.2% Egyptian @ 1.92

  15. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to drobbah For This Useful Post:

     Ellerbe (09-12-2019),  NetNomad (09-12-2019),  Omaar (09-12-2019)

  16. #20
    Registered Users
    Posts
    221
    Sex

    @drobbah;

    You look younger than I thought, somehow I thought you were an old wise man.

    As for me, I almost never get mistaken for groups outside of the Horn region (I can't recall really). I have lived in very multicultural cosmopolitan areas with Africans from all over the place.

  17. The Following User Says Thank You to NetNomad For This Useful Post:

     drobbah (09-12-2019)

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 5
    Last Post: 08-18-2019, 05:49 AM
  2. BY3972 Alligns with Dalcassian Clans
    By danieldgray in forum Z251
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 01-03-2018, 01:07 AM
  3. Scottish Clans and Dubious Histories
    By castle3 in forum General
    Replies: 110
    Last Post: 08-01-2017, 01:53 AM
  4. Korean clans and marriage migration
    By Jean M in forum Genealogy
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 08-20-2014, 02:02 AM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •