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Thread: R-U152>L2>Z367>L20... who else is lost?

  1. #1
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    R1b>U152>L20>FT20578

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    R-U152>L2>Z367>L20... who else is lost?

    Hello, I'm new to Anthrogenica and this forum. I have done BigY700 on FTDNA (kit #843604). My full downtrace from R-U152 is R-U152>L2>Z367>L20>BY69713>FT20578. My terminal SNP is confirmed by my paternal uncle's BigY700 as well. Our MDKA was from Antrim Ireland, born around 1700. He may have been born in Scotland. I have a Y37 (GD3) match with same surname (though no known relation) who also traces to Northern Ireland in early 1800s. His line traces from there back to Midlothian area of Scotland. I have a Y67 (GD4) match who was adopted out of Aberdeen Scotland. He believes he has traced his paternal line by autosomal matching to a MacNeil ancestor in mid-1700s from western isle of Tiree Scotland (not far from Antrim where mine hail from). I also have a Y67 (GD3) match surnamed Pedersen but have never been able to make contact with him. Interestingly, another FTDNA member who is L20 traces to an Anders Gyldenstierne out of Denmark c. 1300. This Gyldenstierne line later had a descendant who line took the name Pedersen. This could imply a distant Norse or Norman connection, but that is speculative. I have one BigY match, surnamed Black at SNP BY69713. He also traces to Northern Ireland in mid-1800s. For what its worth, the last two blocks on my BigY700 at FTDNA are BY69713 (along with BY90902, BY133312, BY94313, FT24199, BY52376, BY146707, FT56478, BY133159, BY149308, BY127517, BY211642, BY77471, FT23737, BY148860, BY143658, BY118281); and my terminal (matched to paternal uncle) at FT20578 (along with FT15484, FT21819, AM00185, FT23317, FT16973, FT20849, FT17859, FT15594, FT26783, FT27199, FT20930, FT25232, FT15797, FT24397, FT15573). I'm having my sons custom SNP paneled at YSEQ. I know for sure that you can test BY69713 and FT20578 at YSEQ now. I've sent them all the listed SNPs so others may be available too. Just wondering if there are any other L20s out there wandering in the wilderness who wanted to compare notes. I feel like I've been spinning my wheels for nearly a year.

  2. #2
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    L20 BY5690
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    Hello, I suggest you send your Bam File to www.yfull.com
    Take a look at ytree of yfull

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     jcmax68 (08-29-2019)

  4. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Titus Valerius View Post
    Hello, I suggest you send your Bam File to www.yfull.com
    Take a look at ytree of yfull
    Well I had an amazingly informative reply I just lost when I tried to post

    I'm on the L20 Big Tree. I know from kit #s there and in U152 project that SNP "neighbors" on U152 predominantly trace from Ireland/N. Ireland in 1700s/1800s. Though I have two neighbors who believe they trace to a Danish line from 1300s who came to East Anglia/Yorkshire. Northern Ireland MDKAs are not all that helpful since it was colonized from Scotland and England in 1600s.

    I know L20 is all over Europe. How do we figure out discrete lines distinguishing say, you in Italy, from mine in Ulster?

  5. #4
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    I was reading through Tibor Feher's 2010 paper that is linked on the FTDNA U152 page. My MDKA was from Antrim Ireland ~1700. I don't know, but suspect, he was Scotland transplant due to some Y37 matching (also same surname) who traces to East Lothian and a Y67 match from Aberdeen who believes his MDKA was from Tiree in the western isles of Scotland.

    I am U152>L2>Z367>L20>BY69713>FT20578. I've done BigY and my results are up on Alex Williamson's Big Tree too (under L20).

    Per Mr. Feher's 2010 paper my STR DYS 492 = 12. My YCAII = 19,23 (not 19,22) but my DYS 447 = 25 and my DYS 511 = 10. I am L20+ but negative for M228.2.

    My question is, do you think these markers indicate a La Tene Briton origin? Or is it more likely a later vector arrival (Belgaic legionnaire, Anglo-Saxon, Dane or Norman)?

    I realize nothing can be determined with absolute certainty, but I'm just curious if there is enough here to make some safe assumptions.

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     palamede (10-19-2019)

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    According to Steve Gilbert at FTDNA, BY69713 dates to about 344AD. That's near tail end of Roman Britain period. Might that be indicative of a Cisalpine or Belgaic Gaul legionnaire entrance vector? Not sure how that could even be ascertained but the dating interesting.

  8. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcmax68 View Post
    Well I had an amazingly informative reply I just lost when I tried to post

    I'm on the L20 Big Tree. I know from kit #s there and in U152 project that SNP "neighbors" on U152 predominantly trace from Ireland/N. Ireland in 1700s/1800s. Though I have two neighbors who believe they trace to a Danish line from 1300s who came to East Anglia/Yorkshire. Northern Ireland MDKAs are not all that helpful since it was colonized from Scotland and England in 1600s.

    I know L20 is all over Europe. How do we figure out discrete lines distinguishing say, you in Italy, from mine in Ulster?
    Your question will not be answered with any authority until L20 ancient DNA samples are tested. To date the earliest aDNA L20 samples are 2 from the Danish islands off Jutland (Viking Era circa 950 AD). None in the Bell Beaker samples (most U152 appear to be L2*), and the Lombard sample that was assigned to Z367 was, according to Alex, not even U152.

    For the moment I will stand on other clues, in my case the surname was originally Falke which is Norman - Danish, the earliest documented ancestor from the coast of East Anglia in the 1300s, and the family "business" (in addition to land owning) of ship building. Seems consistent with a Danish Viking genesis, with earlier (Bronze or Iron Age) origins in perhaps the Switzerland region. I have proposed that much of the L20 came from Bourges, France to northern Italy - Switzerland and Southern Germany circa 600 BC - rationale given in my articles in the FTDNA U152 and Subclades Project pages. However, at this point no one can be sure, there is simply not enough data to make any definitive statements. So we wait until further data either supports or refutes the various hypotheses. Clearly I need to do a Yfull or other deeper testing than the Z367 Pack I took from FTDNA some years ago.

    I should add that the two Danish L20 aDNA samples need to be tested for downstream SNPs. Not sure how I might convince Dr. Willerslev, or others in his circle, to do this though.
    Last edited by falconson1; 10-19-2019 at 03:38 PM.

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     jcmax68 (10-23-2019)

  10. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by falconson1 View Post
    Your question will not be answered with any authority until L20 ancient DNA samples are tested. To date the earliest aDNA L20 samples are 2 from the Danish islands off Jutland (Viking Era circa 950 AD). None in the Bell Beaker samples (most U152 appear to be L2*), and the Lombard sample that was assigned to Z367 was, according to Alex, not even U152.

    For the moment I will stand on other clues, in my case the surname was originally Falke which is Norman - Danish, the earliest documented ancestor from the coast of East Anglia in the 1300s, and the family "business" (in addition to land owning) of ship building. Seems consistent with a Danish Viking genesis, with earlier (Bronze or Iron Age) origins in perhaps the Switzerland region. I have proposed that much of the L20 came from Bourges, France to northern Italy - Switzerland and Southern Germany circa 600 BC - rationale given in my articles in the FTDNA U152 and Subclades Project pages. However, at this point no one can be sure, there is simply not enough data to make any definitive statements. So we wait until further data either supports or refutes the various hypotheses. Clearly I need to do a Yfull or other deeper testing than the Z367 Pack I took from FTDNA some years ago.

    I should add that the two Danish L20 aDNA samples need to be tested for downstream SNPs. Not sure how I might convince Dr. Willerslev, or others in his circle, to do this though.
    Thanks, Dr. Faux. Is your Danish link via the Gyldenstierne line that also is associated with Pedersen? I saw that Viking DNA study, very interesting. I have one Y67 match named CJ Pedersen. I've never been able to establish contact with him. I know of one other L20 on FTDNA who traces to the Gyldenstierne/Pedersen line. His surname is MacBeth, but that is an adopted name. His Y genetic surname would have been variants of Ogar/Hagar. His line also came to East Anglia. I can get you his contact info and terminal SNP if you don't have it.

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     Jenny (11-05-2019)

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    I was sent over from another thread. I did the MorleyDNA test using my Ancestry raw. It reads R1b1a2a1a2b1, R1b-L2, L2/S139. WWhere does this place me at? Anything I can learn from this?
    My paternal comes from Spain, Cantabria, Camargo, Santander, Maliaņo. Any direction would be appreciated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Escagedo View Post
    I was sent over from another thread. I did the MorleyDNA test using my Ancestry raw. It reads R1b1a2a1a2b1, R1b-L2, L2/S139. WWhere does this place me at? Anything I can learn from this?
    My paternal comes from Spain, Cantabria, Camargo, Santander, Maliaņo. Any direction would be appreciated.


    From which company did you take your testing, and which test you took? I had an experience with Morley some months ago and people told me it was unreliable, the only way to confirm it is through a specific Y testing.
    Last edited by Amarelo; 10-31-2019 at 05:30 PM.

  14. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amarelo View Post
    From which company did you take your testing, and which test you took? I had an experience with Morley some months ago and people told me it was unreliable, the only way to confirm it is through a specific Y testing.
    I ran my AncestryDNA raw files through MorleyDNA. I don't have the cash to do what you mentioned at the moment. That said I didn't get any errors. So my question is that It reads R1b1a2a1a2b1, R1b-L2, L2/S139. What can I learn from this and where does this place me?

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