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Thread: Narasimhan values

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by client View Post
    Shudra is not Mleccha, Shudras are part of the Varna system. I think there have been groups in the past that have graduated from Mleccha(outcaste) to Shudra(low caste).
    And to all those talking about "OBC", the only scripture OBC is mentioned in is the constitution.
    I agree, and that is my point. At first these groups were considered Mleccha or avarna, and later when they started picking up different trades in society, they were assigned varnas according to them.
    Deg Teg Fateh - Victory to Charity and Arms

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  3. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by client View Post
    Shudra is not Mleccha, Shudras are part of the Varna system. I think there have been groups in the past that have graduated from Mleccha(outcaste) to Shudra(low caste).
    And to all those talking about "OBC", the only scripture OBC is mentioned in is the constitution.
    Thank you for the clarification. Are any of these NW pops (Jatt, Arain, Tarkhan, Kamboj, Gujjar, etc.) directly mentioned in Hindu scriptures? From my observations, caste seems to have a strong correlation with autosomal ancestry in much of the subcontinent outside that NW (excluding Muslims with more recent foreign ancestry).
    Last edited by Sapporo; 08-14-2019 at 04:35 AM.
    pegasus modeling:

    sample": "Punjabi_Jat:Sapporo_AGUser",
    "fit": 1.1506,
    "IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3": 43.33,
    "TKM_Gonur1_BA": 31.67,
    "RUS_Sintashta_MLBA": 25,
    "closestDistances": [

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  5. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapporo View Post
    Thank you for the clarification. Are any of these NW pops (Jatt, Arain, Tarkhan, Kamboj, Gujjar, etc.) directly mentioned in Hindu scriptures? From my observations, caste seems to have a strong correlation with autosomal ancestry in much of the subcontinent outside that NW (excluding Muslims with more recent foreign ancestry).
    yes, it seems in line with steppe component, brahmin > rajput > others.
    In another observation, Brahmins and rajputs of gangetic plains, rajasthan, madhya pradesh etc. always score more steppe (NE euro) than Caucasus on Harappa calculator. Same is observed about South Indian brahmins and Nairs etc.
    Last edited by prashantvaidwan; 08-14-2019 at 05:14 AM.

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  7. #104
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    IronAge NW could have similar caste based autosomes, which is now lost due to the caste system breaking up completely in the NW and new identities forming around purely religious/linguistic groups. Needless to say, I’m open to the evidence for or contrary to this.

  8. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapporo View Post
    Thank you for the clarification. Are any of these NW pops (Jatt, Arain, Tarkhan, Kamboj, Gujjar, etc.) directly mentioned in Hindu scriptures? From my observations, caste seems to have a strong correlation with autosomal ancestry in much of the subcontinent outside that NW (excluding Muslims with more recent foreign ancestry).
    Kambojas are frequently mentioned in literature
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kambojas

    they are initially mentioned as (assimilated?) Kshatriya by Panini, alongside Salvas(who are supposed to be non Vedic as well), but are later (re)degraded to mleccha
    here's more on that
     




    IMO, Salvas may be a candidate for proto-Jats, if we go by that Jats are rebellious/deviant Indics (and not later arrivals) theory.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salva_(India)


    I'll look for references to those other groups
    Last edited by client; 08-14-2019 at 05:25 AM.

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  10. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by client View Post
    Kambojas are frequently mentioned in literature
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kambojas

    they are initially mentioned as (assimilated?) Kshatriya by Panini, alongside Salvas(who are supposed to be non Vedic as well), but are later (re)degraded to mleccha
    here's more on that
     




    IMO, Salvas may be a candidate for proto-Jats, if we go by that Jats are rebellious/deviant Indics (and not later arrivals) theory.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salva_(India)


    I'll look for references to those other groups
    I don't know what book you got this from, but it matches my observations of reading the material on my own. I have also been stating the same thing. The center of power moves from the NW to the plains, and so changes the narrative. Unfortunately, we don't have literature from the NW kingdoms, but I suspect they would say the opposite. The NW does retain the Brahmins but had to mix with the gangetic plains to keep their numbers. We already saw the nuristani Kalash like folks that Pegasus posted. The Brahmins from the NW likely come from the same stock.

    "sample": "Brahmin_Jammu:Average",
    "fit": 1.1003,
    "Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh": 63.33,
    "Kalash": 36.67,

    "sample": "Potohar_Brahmin:Average",
    "fit": 0.9187,
    "Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh": 54.17,
    "Kalash": 45.83,

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  12. #107
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    I did some more digging regarding the Jatt Sikh samples and seem to have located the paper that they were sourced from:

    https://www.nature.com/articles/ng.3917

    Review the supplementary files (.pdf and excel file). Here is link to the .pdf: https://media.nature.com/original/na...ng.3917-S1.pdf

    The excel file details the following: IBD, FST, and group-specific drift analyses. However, it also lists the number of samples, testing platform and the state, town and coordinates they were obtained from. For Jatt Sikhs, they indicate 44 samples from Bathinda, Punjab. Many of the sample populations heavily overlap with the population dataset that Narasimhan used.

    Anyways, if you review some of the autosomal testing and comparisons the paper did, there is a list titled Supplementary Table 4 (p. 6 of .pdf) that shows IBD sharing across groups for selected populations. For Jatt Sikhs, the groups with high shared IBD are Punjabis and Scheduled Caste Haryana. The Punjabi group seems to be a generic group of Punjabis at first glance but the excel file lists them as "migrants from UK." A quick glance at their coordinates indicates this is false. These are the same 8 PJL samples used by Lazaridis/Narasimhan in their study. This population data error was carried over in 2 consecutive papers. Quite impressive.

    So, even if these individuals are "dalit" like as a group, it's at least conceivable they could have IBD sharing with Jatt Sikhs. However, with scheduled caste Haryana, that may not be the case. Upon further inspection, I determined scheduled caste Haryana can include some of the following: Balmiki, Chamar, Mazhabi and Sansi. These are all overlapping scheduled castes or dalit groups between Punjab and Haryana.

    See further details here:
    http://haryanascbc.gov.in/list-of-scheduled-castes


    Make of it what you will but this is certainly surprising to me. For those unfamiliar with IBD sharing:

    An IBS segment is identical by descent (IBD) in two or more individuals if they have inherited it from a common ancestor without recombination, that is, the segment has the same ancestral origin in these individuals.
    It's worth noting that the heavily "SI shifted" Sahota and Sidhu kits that bol_nat found matched with PJL D individuals. Not with Jatt Sikhs.
    Last edited by Sapporo; 08-14-2019 at 09:14 AM.
    pegasus modeling:

    sample": "Punjabi_Jat:Sapporo_AGUser",
    "fit": 1.1506,
    "IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3": 43.33,
    "TKM_Gonur1_BA": 31.67,
    "RUS_Sintashta_MLBA": 25,
    "closestDistances": [

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  14. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by client View Post
    Kambojas are frequently mentioned in literature
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kambojas

    ...

    IMO, Salvas may be a candidate for proto-Jats, if we go by that Jats are rebellious/deviant Indics (and not later arrivals) theory.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salva_(India)
    Are there other evidence that make the connection? I find it hard to believe being "rebellious/deviant" is enough to associate a 500BCE tribe to a modern group.

  15. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by poi View Post
    Are there other evidence that make the connection? I find it hard to believe being "rebellious/deviant" is enough to associate a 500BCE tribe to a modern group.
    There was a theory going around, posted by various members here(I believe it was DMXX and Kulin who suggested it first, basically brainstorming), stating that Jats needn't be late arrivals into the picture, but people who rejected Vedic Brahminism or whatever, and thus were declared as Mleccha(initially).

    What I said was, if that theory holds, then Salvas are a possible candidate for this group.

    Here is the theory
    Last edited by client; 08-14-2019 at 02:26 PM.

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  17. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by client View Post
    There was a theory going around, posted by various members here(I believe it was DMXX and Kulin who suggested it first, basically brainstorming), stating that Jats needn't be late arrivals into the picture, but people who rejected Vedic Brahminism or whatever, and thus were declared as Mleccha(initially).

    What I said was, if that theory holds, then Salvas are a possible candidate for this group.
    The Haplos, especially paternal Haplogroups are not diverse enough to make them that old in subcontinent. L1a2, RY7 and Q are one of the top haplos among them, which points towards more BMAC + later groups origin. I think Rors were found to be fairly recent arrival, like in past 1500-2000 years. Jatts won't be that different from that. Kambojas didn't exist during IVC times, but even though they're mentioned in Puranas, they've always portrayed in same region. Jatts could be similar group that moved more south with time.
    Deg Teg Fateh - Victory to Charity and Arms

    Punjab, Punjabi, Fateh.

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