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Thread: DNA study reveals 130,000 Hungarians are at least 50% Jewish

  1. #11
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    There is absolutely no way of demonstrating, through autosomal DNA alone, that it is these Hungarians who have Jewish ancestry, and not Jewish people who have Hungarian ancestry.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    There is absolutely no way of demonstrating, through autosomal DNA alone, that it is these Hungarians who have Jewish ancestry, and not Jewish people who have Hungarian ancestry.
    If they score 50+% Ashkenazi, then it's them who have Jewish ancestry.
    הִנְנִי֩ מֵבִ֨יא אוֹתָ֜ם מֵאֶ֣רֶץ צָפ֗וֹן

    Jeremiah 31

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    Quote Originally Posted by StillWater View Post
    If they score 50+% Ashkenazi, then it's them who have Jewish ancestry.
    Why is that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    Why is that?
    How likely is it that the Ashkenazi reference panel has enough Hungarian segments to assign these people 50% Ashkenazi?
    הִנְנִי֩ מֵבִ֨יא אוֹתָ֜ם מֵאֶ֣רֶץ צָפ֗וֹן

    Jeremiah 31

  6. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonahst View Post
    I believe the % is the proportion of people in each country with some ancestry from these ethnic groups. I'm actually surprised it's so low in Israel considering that most non-Ashkenazi Jews and many non-Jewish Levantines get a small % of Ashkenazi.
    Yes, 51% also seemed to be too low for me.
    It would be interesting to see results of Sephardi or Mizrahi Jews on MyHeritage, if they really have that tiny Ashkenazi percent.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonahst View Post
    But I would guess that the vast majority of Latin Americans and Eastern Europeans have a tiny percentage Ashkenazi (1-5%). I don't think this reflects the number of people eligible for Law of Return.
    I wrote that East European people with Ashkenazy ancestry, unlike Latin Americans, have mostly recent ancestry.

    Quote Originally Posted by passenger View Post
    I'm not saying that there's overcounting or undercounting as far as specific studies are concerned. I would assume that the statisticians MH worked with on the above study took the necessary variables into account. But clearly MH figures in themselves are not a reliable indicator of real percentages of people with Jewish heritage (or any heritage for that matter) in a given country, since they're only telling you figures based on the percentage of people who happen to have ordered one of their kits in a given country, regardless of whether the individuals actually live in that country or have ancestors who lived in that country. Even if we're just talking about citizens of that country, how can MH users possibly be a representative cross-section of the national population as a whole? Are we to believe that 12% of South Africans have Ashkenazi ancestry, when less than 9% of the population is white (yes, I'm sure there are a few people with Jewish ancestry who aren't classified as white, but you get the picture)?
    I guess most people in this statistics do not order kits in MH, as it is possible to load data from23andme and other companies.

    Population in East European countries is much more homogenous culturally, if we compare them to South Africa or most American countries. There is no such a deep divide between groups like in South Africa or in many Latin American countries. In East Europe it cannot happen that moslty some wealthy minority, genetically different from most population, orders tests.
    I never claimed that 14% of Russian population has recent Jewish ancestry. I wanted to say that given population structure in Russia, if only 300 thousand (0,2% of country population) had recent Ashkenazy ancestry that would not give 14% in overall results. But ok, probably that numbers from MH do not indicate well.

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  8. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by artemv View Post

    Population in East European countries is much more homogenous culturally, if we compare them to South Africa or most American countries. There is no such a deep divide between groups like in South Africa or in many Latin American countries. In East Europe it cannot happen that moslty some wealthy minority, genetically different from most population, orders tests.
    I never claimed that 14% of Russian population has recent Jewish ancestry. I wanted to say that given population structure in Russia, if only 300 thousand (0,2% of country population) had recent Ashkenazy ancestry that would not give 14% in overall results. But ok, probably that numbers from MH do not indicate well.
    I noticed a trend among Soviet Jews to get MyHeritage kits. This trend may have influenced their relatives still living in Russia to get such tests. If this trend began with Jews, then it's not shocking if it reached a higher % of Jews in Russia than others.
    הִנְנִי֩ מֵבִ֨יא אוֹתָ֜ם מֵאֶ֣רֶץ צָפ֗וֹן

    Jeremiah 31

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  10. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by artemv View Post
    Yes, 51% also seemed to be too low for me.
    It would be interesting to see results of Sephardi or Mizrahi Jews on MyHeritage, if they really have that tiny Ashkenazi percent.


    I wrote that East European people with Ashkenazy ancestry, unlike Latin Americans, have mostly recent ancestry.



    I guess most people in this statistics do not order kits in MH, as it is possible to load data from23andme and other companies.

    Population in East European countries is much more homogenous culturally, if we compare them to South Africa or most American countries. There is no such a deep divide between groups like in South Africa or in many Latin American countries. In East Europe it cannot happen that moslty some wealthy minority, genetically different from most population, orders tests.
    I never claimed that 14% of Russian population has recent Jewish ancestry. I wanted to say that given population structure in Russia, if only 300 thousand (0,2% of country population) had recent Ashkenazy ancestry that would not give 14% in overall results. But ok, probably that numbers from MH do not indicate well.
    I think 300,000 might have a fully Jewish grandparent. Many more people might have more distant Jewish ancestry. Also, as others have noted, there could be an extreme overrepresentation of Jews among Russian testing with MyHeritage, especially since it's an Israeli company. Jews are definitely way overrepresented among Americans doing DNA tests.

    Just going through my first 30 matches that live in Russia, I notice that half (15) are mostly or fully Ashkenazi (80-100% with the rest usually being MENA, Southern European, or other Jewish). The other half are a mix from 25% - 75%. I don't really notice any patterns with age oddly enough. My most distant matches are overall much less Ashkenazi, with most having under 25% and one not having any! Though there are a few who are 75-100%.

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  12. #18
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    I have 83 matches in Russia, 64 in Hungary, 33 in Ukraine, 16 in the Czech Republic, 10 in Poland, 9 in Slovakia and Romania, and 2 in Belarus. Most of my matches in the first few pages appear to be either fully Ashkenazi or have a bit of something else that's not unusual, like Sephardic or various MENA categories. The final matches have a great grandparent who was Jewish. I've noticed more than a few people have trees managed by somebody in Israel, the company MyHeritage is from, so I wonder if that says anything about the likelihood of the results we're seeing.

    An interesting thing about the Hungarian matches (and a few of the purely Ashkenazi Slovak ones) is that a lot of them, compared to others, seem to have Hungarian surnames instead of ones derived from Hebrew, Yiddish, or German. In one person's case, a late 19th century man born to a father with the last name Weisz is shown as having the last name Kovács, a very common Hungarian surname. There are other instances where people's ancestors appear to suddenly acquire other common Hungarian names like Horváth and Tóth, or topographic ones for towns or regions they're ostensibly from (e.g. Borsod -> Borsodi), despite their ancestors having very typically Ashkenazi surnames. My father's parents are from Hungary (and what is now Slovakia) as well but all the surnames that I'm aware of in our tree are typical Ashkenazi ones, sometimes with Hungarian spellings. Does this seem to be the case with anybody else's Hungarian or Slovak matches?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jetshop View Post
    I have 83 matches in Russia, 64 in Hungary, 33 in Ukraine, 16 in the Czech Republic, 10 in Poland, 9 in Slovakia and Romania, and 2 in Belarus. Most of my matches in the first few pages appear to be either fully Ashkenazi or have a bit of something else that's not unusual, like Sephardic or various MENA categories. The final matches have a great grandparent who was Jewish. I've noticed more than a few people have trees managed by somebody in Israel, the company MyHeritage is from, so I wonder if that says anything about the likelihood of the results we're seeing.

    An interesting thing about the Hungarian matches (and a few of the purely Ashkenazi Slovak ones) is that a lot of them, compared to others, seem to have Hungarian surnames instead of ones derived from Hebrew, Yiddish, or German. In one person's case, a late 19th century man born to a father with the last name Weisz is shown as having the last name Kovács, a very common Hungarian surname. There are other instances where people's ancestors appear to suddenly acquire other common Hungarian names like Horváth and Tóth, or topographic ones for towns or regions they're ostensibly from (e.g. Borsod -> Borsodi), despite their ancestors having very typically Ashkenazi surnames. My father's parents are from Hungary (and what is now Slovakia) as well but all the surnames that I'm aware of in our tree are typical Ashkenazi ones, sometimes with Hungarian spellings. Does this seem to be the case with anybody else's Hungarian or Slovak matches?
    There was a huge wave of assimilation and conversion in Hungary starting from late 19th century. The first step was to change your surname.

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