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Thread: Did Greek Orthodox Christians fleeing Arab rule spread Levantine DNA to SE Europe?

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greekscholar View Post
    Here are the two Constantinople samples I have mapped with K36. Let me know what other test results you want to see. These two are siblings, but a bit different on this test. One sample really "lights up the Byzantine world" and is a strong match to mainland Greece, the Aegean islands, and Southern Italy/Sicily. The other siblings is a more general match to those same places, but is a strongest match to Crete. There may not be one profile for a Constantinople Greek, it was a big cosmopolitan city holding lots of cosmopolitan people.

    Smyrna or other Western Asia Minor Greeks would be my wish list right now. Greeks lived there for 1,000s of years and may be the population that had the fewest depopulation/repopulation events in that area.
    It's amazing that the one Constantinople result shares such affinity with the mainland. I would guess that it just has to do with the admixture of that sample; NE Greek (Slavic like) plus a minor Anatolian component. I always guessed that Greeks from Constantinople were like other Western Anatolian Greeks; i.e., more Caucasus leaning.

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  3. #52
    Sicily was by no way mainly Greek speaking or Greek Orthodox under byzantine rule.

    m-1054-with-former-borders.png

    DapCOPNXcAAFWhS.jpg

    Regarding OP's topic, Orthodox Levantines welcomed the Arabs as liberators from the Byzantine oppression. It wouldn't make any sense for them to flee from the Muslims.

  4. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    I am not sure how much Italic ancestry remains in Calabria. Certainly less than in southeastern Sicily or Trapani. And I seem to find Apulians not to be very "Italic" like either, but firmly Peloponnesian/Maniot like. But I think that is because Apulia has a lot of recent Greek from the last 1000 years.

    As far as Istanbul goes it could be that the Greeks alive today who descend from there either had recent ancestry from the Greek mainland and/or the Greeks in Istanbul had been affected by the Slavic migrations. Not sure which theory you find more likely.
    Apulians (including Griko speakers) are barely different from Calabrians and Lucanians. Stop with this nonsense.

    CpeMck5.png

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  6. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assiette mix View Post
    Regarding OP's topic, Orthodox Levantines welcomed the Arabs as liberators from the Byzantine oppression. It wouldn't make any sense for them to flee from the Muslims.
    I'd never heard this before but if it is true it would make sense that they might assume more kinship to other Semitic-speaking Middle Easterners. But the question I would have is, did they find their expectations to be correct once Arab rule was established, or did they face systematic oppression that, in the end, pushed them out?

    As far as Sicily not being predominantly Greek speaking and Greek Orthodox under Byzantine rule, if this is true according to verified historical sources then I can admit to being wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Assiette mix View Post
    Apulians (including Griko speakers) are barely different from Calabrians and Lucanians. Stop with this nonsense.

    CpeMck5.png
    I go by the science now and can admit if I am wrong, so I am going to, actually, agree with you here.

    On that chart the only outlier for southern Italy appears to be Trapani. This was also confirmed by the study on Crete. Ragusa actually here is not an outlier either, nor was it in the Cretan study so I am going to not say that anymore either. Syracuse has never been sampled in any study, I personally suspect it would be an outlier like Trapani is but I don't plan to post about this topic much anymore either so if it turns out I am wrong, I am wrong.

    Since I always say "we must go with what the science says" (which is the entire reason I stopped posting about or even caring about comparing phenotypes, it's unscientific and subjective) I am actually going to do that here and not impose my own view, given that other than self-reported ancestry on GEDmatch I cannot truly verify the 4 Apulian results I have posted.

    This topic has actually been covered ad-nauseam so you probably won't see me post much about southern Italy or Greece anymore either.
    Last edited by Sikeliot; 08-22-2019 at 11:39 AM.

  7. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    I'd never heard this before but if it is true it would make sense that they might assume more kinship to other Semitic-speaking Middle Easterners. But the question I would have is, did they find their expectations to be correct once Arab rule was established, or did they face systematic oppression that, in the end, pushed them out?

    As far as Sicily not being predominantly Greek speaking and Greek Orthodox under Byzantine rule, if this is true according to verified historical sources then I can admit to being wrong.



    I go by the science now and can admit if I am wrong, so I am going to, actually, agree with you here.

    On that chart the only outlier for southern Italy appears to be Trapani. This was also confirmed by the study on Crete. Ragusa actually here is not an outlier either, nor was it in the Cretan study so I am going to not say that anymore either. Syracuse has never been sampled in any study, I personally suspect it would be an outlier like Trapani is but I don't plan to post about this topic much anymore either so if it turns out I am wrong, I am wrong.

    Since I always say "we must go with what the science says" (which is the entire reason I stopped posting about or even caring about comparing phenotypes, it's unscientific and subjective) I am actually going to do that here and not impose my own view, given that other than self-reported ancestry on GEDmatch I cannot truly verify the 4 Apulian results I have posted.

    This topic has actually been covered ad-nauseam so you probably won't see me post much about southern Italy or Greece anymore either.
    A few things here:

    1. You can only post the samples you find. Whether they are representative of the locality, or not, can only be determined by looking at samples. So long as your methodology is sound (no cherry picking of samples to fit an agenda, making sure the person at least self-reports long standing family ancestry in the location) you should post samples. Sharing information is a key part of this chatroom and our discussions

    2. You are not the only person who feels Apulians differ from other Southern Italian populations. We have seen it on K36, and to be honest, I see it on that 4-component PCA posted above. The Apulians have less Near East + European than any other SSI samples on that chart. There closest peers on these components are the Arbereshe samples, which is what you have found as well (the mainland shift as you like to call it.) ALL OF THESE samples are from our Continuum populations(or their closest neighbors) so I would really hope a 4-component analysis finds them very similar overall. That doesn't mean other tests can't distill down the differences that even this PCA shows.

    3. This is a chatroom! It only exists because conversations are started and debates are had! If none of us take the chance to put forth an idea, a hypothesis, some samples we found, there is literally no reason for this place to exist. This isn't a list-serv for Ph.Ds to discuss peer reviewed work only. It is for regular, average, citizen researchers and interested parties as well.

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  9. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greekscholar View Post
    A few things here:

    1. You can only post the samples you find. Whether they are representative of the locality, or not, can only be determined by looking at samples. So long as your methodology is sound (no cherry picking of samples to fit an agenda, making sure the person at least self-reports long standing family ancestry in the location) you should post samples. Sharing information is a key part of this chatroom and our discussions

    2. You are not the only person who feels Apulians differ from other Southern Italian populations. We have seen it on K36, and to be honest, I see it on that 4-component PCA posted above. The Apulians have less Near East + European than any other SSI samples on that chart. There closest peers on these components are the Arbereshe samples, which is what you have found as well (the mainland shift as you like to call it.) ALL OF THESE samples are from our Continuum populations(or their closest neighbors) so I would really hope a 4-component analysis finds them very similar overall. That doesn't mean other tests can't distill down the differences that even this PCA shows.

    3. This is a chatroom! It only exists because conversations are started and debates are had! If none of us take the chance to put forth an idea, a hypothesis, some samples we found, there is literally no reason for this place to exist. This isn't a list-serv for Ph.Ds to discuss peer reviewed work only. It is for regular, average, citizen researchers and interested parties as well.
    Totally agree. I don't always concur with Sikeliot but that's the art of discussion, and his contributions are valuable and informative. As you say, neither Sikeliot or anyone else is here to defend a PhD thesis. This is a forum at the end of the day. Of course, posters need to defend their positions through reasoned argument, and avoid intentionally inflamatory discourse. Beyond that, all contributions are welcome. I also notice the K36 difference with Puglia and we know from recent statements from Davidski that K36 is still a good barometer of modern populations. Now why precisely Puglians do differ is why we have a discussion thread. Likewise, the similarity 'spike' for Aegean and Cypriot Greeks in Trabzon/Trapezounta is also open to different interpretations. Vive la discussion.

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  11. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greekscholar View Post
    A few things here:

    1. You can only post the samples you find. Whether they are representative of the locality, or not, can only be determined by looking at samples. So long as your methodology is sound (no cherry picking of samples to fit an agenda, making sure the person at least self-reports long standing family ancestry in the location) you should post samples. Sharing information is a key part of this chatroom and our discussions

    2. You are not the only person who feels Apulians differ from other Southern Italian populations. We have seen it on K36, and to be honest, I see it on that 4-component PCA posted above. The Apulians have less Near East + European than any other SSI samples on that chart. There closest peers on these components are the Arbereshe samples, which is what you have found as well (the mainland shift as you like to call it.) ALL OF THESE samples are from our Continuum populations(or their closest neighbors) so I would really hope a 4-component analysis finds them very similar overall. That doesn't mean other tests can't distill down the differences that even this PCA shows.

    3. This is a chatroom! It only exists because conversations are started and debates are had! If none of us take the chance to put forth an idea, a hypothesis, some samples we found, there is literally no reason for this place to exist. This isn't a list-serv for Ph.Ds to discuss peer reviewed work only. It is for regular, average, citizen researchers and interested parties as well.
    I only have 4 Apulian samples. In those samples I do notice a difference to Sicilians/Calabrians on the basis of the Apulians having more Steppe input and noticeably less Near Eastern (Sarno et al actually confirms this if you look at the red "Near Eastern" component which looks about 20% in Palermo, Agrigento, Catania, etc. but about half of that in Apulia), but I just hope to find more samples before figuring out if that's an all-encompassing trend. What is interesting is, I also noticed my Ragusa samples I have from Sicily to be "north" shifted too, but both the Sarno et al 2017 study and the Cretan study found no difference between them and other parts of Sicily (and also had Ragusa plotting with Crete), unlike Trapani which was seen as the only outlier. So I am wondering where the disconnect is coming from and I just want to be careful not to come off unscientific or like I am denying the peer reviewed studies. But I do appreciate your post.

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  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greekscholar View Post
    A few things here:

    1. You can only post the samples you find. Whether they are representative of the locality, or not, can only be determined by looking at samples. So long as your methodology is sound (no cherry picking of samples to fit an agenda, making sure the person at least self-reports long standing family ancestry in the location) you should post samples. Sharing information is a key part of this chatroom and our discussions

    2. You are not the only person who feels Apulians differ from other Southern Italian populations. We have seen it on K36, and to be honest, I see it on that 4-component PCA posted above. The Apulians have less Near East + European than any other SSI samples on that chart. There closest peers on these components are the Arbereshe samples, which is what you have found as well (the mainland shift as you like to call it.) ALL OF THESE samples are from our Continuum populations(or their closest neighbors) so I would really hope a 4-component analysis finds them very similar overall. That doesn't mean other tests can't distill down the differences that even this PCA shows.

    3. This is a chatroom! It only exists because conversations are started and debates are had! If none of us take the chance to put forth an idea, a hypothesis, some samples we found, there is literally no reason for this place to exist. This isn't a list-serv for Ph.Ds to discuss peer reviewed work only. It is for regular, average, citizen researchers and interested parties as well.
    You have such a refreshing perspective.

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    Something else I can throw in there is that even with various shifts and minor differences (i.e. higher North/West European in Trapani, higher MENA in Palermo or Agrigento, higher mainland Greek/Balkan in Apulia and Syracuse), all of the regions of South Italy plot closer to one another, Western Jews, Maniots, and Aegean island Greeks than to anyone else. They are all subsets of one cluster and we have called it many names -- East Med continuum, SE Europe, Aegean/Greco-Roman, what have you -- but it's like comparing Ireland and UK.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    Something else I can throw in there is that even with various shifts and minor differences (i.e. higher North/West European in Trapani, higher MENA in Palermo or Agrigento, higher mainland Greek/Balkan in Apulia and Syracuse), all of the regions of South Italy plot closer to one another, Western Jews, Maniots, and Aegean island Greeks than to anyone else. They are all subsets of one cluster and we have called it many names -- East Med continuum, SE Europe, Aegean/Greco-Roman, what have you -- but it's like comparing Ireland and UK.
    Do you have any Maniot samples? I would love to see MDLP K16 and Eurogenes K15 if you do. I have heard that this population "bridges the gap" between the mainland and the islands, but I have never seen a sample. Lots of good books written about Mani, for what it is worth.

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