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Thread: Did Greek Orthodox Christians fleeing Arab rule spread Levantine DNA to SE Europe?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greekscholar View Post
    Do you have any Maniot samples? I would love to see MDLP K16 and Eurogenes K15 if you do. I have heard that this population "bridges the gap" between the mainland and the islands, but I have never seen a sample. Lots of good books written about Mani, for what it is worth.
    They are similar to Apulians, pretty much.

    # Population Percent
    1 East_Med 25.93
    2 West_Asian 14.84
    3 West_Med 14.09
    4 Atlantic 14.05
    5 Baltic 12.67
    6 North_Sea 7.6
    7 Eastern_Euro 5.94
    8 Red_Sea 4.13
    9 Southeast_Asian 0.38
    10 Oceanian 0.18
    11 Amerindian 0.14
    12 South_Asian 0.06

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Greek 4.61
    2 Central_Greek 6.59
    3 Ashkenazi 7.83
    4 Greek_Thessaly 7.87
    5 East_Sicilian 7.94
    6 Italian_Abruzzo 8.31
    7 South_Italian 9.25
    8 West_Sicilian 9.98
    9 Bulgarian 10.86
    10 Tuscan 12.59
    11 Sephardic_Jewish 13.47
    12 Italian_Jewish 13.6
    13 Romanian 13.63
    14 Algerian_Jewish 14.53
    15 Tunisian_Jewish 17.05
    16 Serbian 17.56
    17 Cyprian 17.89
    18 North_Italian 18.01
    19 Turkish 18.63
    20 Libyan_Jewish 19.33

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 62.6% Bulgarian + 37.4% Cyprian @ 2.28
    2 87.5% Greek + 12.5% Iranian_Jewish @ 2.74
    3 87% Greek + 13% Assyrian @ 2.83
    4 88.2% Greek + 11.8% Kurdish_Jewish @ 2.91
    5 87.7% Greek + 12.3% Georgian_Jewish @ 2.92
    6 85.1% Greek + 14.9% Lebanese_Muslim @ 2.96
    7 70.9% Bulgarian + 29.1% Lebanese_Christian @ 3.01
    8 88.4% Greek + 11.6% Lebanese_Druze @ 3.1
    9 86.2% Greek + 13.8% Syrian @ 3.12
    10 88.4% Greek + 11.6% Kurdish @ 3.14
    11 88.9% Greek + 11.1% Iranian @ 3.16
    12 88.5% Greek + 11.5% Lebanese_Christian @ 3.22
    13 84.9% Greek + 15.1% Turkish @ 3.25
    14 87.4% Greek + 12.6% Azeri @ 3.27
    15 88.9% Greek + 11.1% Armenian @ 3.27
    16 88.2% Greek + 11.8% Jordanian @ 3.3
    17 88.7% Greek + 11.3% Palestinian @ 3.3
    18 70.1% Bulgarian + 29.9% Samaritan @ 3.31
    19 57.5% Cyprian + 42.5% Croatian @ 3.42
    20 88.7% Greek + 11.3% Samaritan @ 3.42

    For comparison to a "typical" Sicilian here is someone from the Palermo region. They are closer than other mainland Greeks would be to Sicilians, but not as much as Aegean islands are.

    # Population Percent
    1 East_Med 28.6
    2 West_Asian 16.12
    3 West_Med 14.94
    4 Atlantic 14.87
    5 North_Sea 9.47
    6 Baltic 7.16
    7 Red_Sea 5.81
    8 Northeast_African 1.56
    9 Eastern_Euro 1.47
    10 Southeast_Asian 0.01

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 East_Sicilian 3.6
    2 Central_Greek 3.89
    3 South_Italian 4.09
    4 Italian_Abruzzo 5.1
    5 Ashkenazi 6.28
    6 West_Sicilian 6.95
    7 Italian_Jewish 8.33
    8 Sephardic_Jewish 8.45
    9 Greek 8.95
    10 Greek_Thessaly 10.02
    11 Algerian_Jewish 10.19
    12 Tuscan 11.48
    13 Tunisian_Jewish 12.28
    14 Cyprian 14.45
    15 Libyan_Jewish 14.68
    16 Bulgarian 15.99
    17 Lebanese_Muslim 16.87
    18 Turkish 17.13
    19 Syrian 17.97
    20 North_Italian 17.99

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 79.7% Italian_Abruzzo + 20.3% Lebanese_Muslim @ 2.82
    2 83.3% Italian_Abruzzo + 16.7% Samaritan @ 2.94
    3 84.1% Italian_Abruzzo + 15.9% Lebanese_Christian @ 2.96
    4 83.3% Italian_Abruzzo + 16.7% Jordanian @ 2.96
    5 77.4% Italian_Abruzzo + 22.6% Cyprian @ 2.97
    6 84.7% Italian_Abruzzo + 15.3% Lebanese_Druze @ 3.02
    7 81.2% Italian_Abruzzo + 18.8% Syrian @ 3.03
    8 84.2% Italian_Abruzzo + 15.8% Palestinian @ 3.04
    9 83.8% Central_Greek + 16.2% Tunisian_Jewish @ 3.14
    10 85.3% Italian_Abruzzo + 14.7% Iranian_Jewish @ 3.15
    11 60% Tuscan + 40% Lebanese_Muslim @ 3.18
    12 92.8% East_Sicilian + 7.2% Assyrian @ 3.18
    13 93.3% East_Sicilian + 6.7% Georgian_Jewish @ 3.19
    14 94% South_Italian + 6% La_Brana-1 @ 3.19
    15 93.6% South_Italian + 6.4% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 3.19
    16 93.6% East_Sicilian + 6.4% Kurdish @ 3.19
    17 93.7% South_Italian + 6.3% Russian_Smolensk @ 3.21
    18 94% South_Italian + 6% Belorussian @ 3.21
    19 93.8% South_Italian + 6.2% Southwest_Russian @ 3.21
    20 91.1% East_Sicilian + 8.9% Turkish @ 3.21
    Last edited by Sikeliot; 08-23-2019 at 10:38 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    They are similar to Apulians, pretty much.




    For comparison to a "typical" Sicilian here is someone from the Palermo region. They are closer than other mainland Greeks would be to Sicilians, but not as much as Aegean islands are.
    What would this be according to your estimation? Which kind of Southern Italian, Sicilian or Aegean Islander would this be? (just testing your skills).

    # Population Percent
    1 East_Med 27.35
    2 Atlantic 22.76
    3 West_Med 17.98
    4 West_Asian 13.8
    5 Red_Sea 7.04
    6 North_Sea 6.71
    7 Baltic 4.36
    8 Northeast_African 0.01

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 West_Sicilian 6.52
    2 Italian_Abruzzo 7.78
    3 South_Italian 8.41
    4 East_Sicilian 9.13
    5 Central_Greek 9.85
    6 Sephardic_Jewish 10.23
    7 Tuscan 10.26
    8 Italian_Jewish 11
    9 Algerian_Jewish 11.77
    10 Greek 12.11
    11 Ashkenazi 12.34
    12 Tunisian_Jewish 14.55
    13 Greek_Thessaly 14.81
    14 North_Italian 15.73
    15 Cyprian 18.57
    16 Libyan_Jewish 18.67
    17 Bulgarian 19.03
    18 Spanish_Andalucia 20.45
    19 Romanian 21.09
    20 Spanish_Extremadura 21.39
    Last edited by Dimanto; 08-24-2019 at 01:03 AM.
    Mc Donald:
    Most likely fit is 62.4% (+- 9.5%) Europe (various subcontinents)
    and 37.6% (+- 9.5%) Mideast (various subcontinents)
    Dodecad World9:
    1 50% S_Italian_Sicilian +50% Dutch @ 1.083
    2 50% German +50% S_Italian @ 1.126
    3 50% Dutch +50% S_Italian @ 1.148

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    They are similar to Apulians, pretty much.




    For comparison to a "typical" Sicilian here is someone from the Palermo region. They are closer than other mainland Greeks would be to Sicilians, but not as much as Aegean islands are.
    Do the Maniot samples that you have access to come from individuals that have tested at 23andme?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dimanto View Post
    What would this be according to your estimation? Which kind of Southern Italian, Sicilian or Aegean Islander would this be? (just testing your skills).

    # Population Percent
    1 East_Med 27.35
    2 Atlantic 22.76
    3 West_Med 17.98
    4 West_Asian 13.8
    5 Red_Sea 7.04
    6 North_Sea 6.71
    7 Baltic 4.36
    8 Northeast_African 0.01

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 West_Sicilian 6.52
    2 Italian_Abruzzo 7.78
    3 South_Italian 8.41
    4 East_Sicilian 9.13
    5 Central_Greek 9.85
    6 Sephardic_Jewish 10.23
    7 Tuscan 10.26
    8 Italian_Jewish 11
    9 Algerian_Jewish 11.77
    10 Greek 12.11
    11 Ashkenazi 12.34
    12 Tunisian_Jewish 14.55
    13 Greek_Thessaly 14.81
    14 North_Italian 15.73
    15 Cyprian 18.57
    16 Libyan_Jewish 18.67
    17 Bulgarian 19.03
    18 Spanish_Andalucia 20.45
    19 Romanian 21.09
    20 Spanish_Extremadura 21.39
    IMO Trapani, SE Sicily, or inner Campania. I might also have said Apulia but the Baltic/East Euro are lower than I'd expect for them. This result is different from Calabria and Palermitans/Messinese because of having lower East Med, West Asian than them and higher Atlantic on average.

    When I see Atlantic percentages that high I tend to guess either Trapani, Syracuse/Ragusa, or somewhere in Campania/Abruzzo area.

    Quote Originally Posted by J Man View Post
    Do the Maniot samples that you have access to come from individuals that have tested at 23andme?
    Unfortunately no.
    Last edited by Sikeliot; 08-24-2019 at 11:54 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dimanto View Post
    What would this be according to your estimation? Which kind of Southern Italian, Sicilian or Aegean Islander would this be? (just testing your skills).
    My turn. Try this one? I gave both Eurogenes K13 and K15. Also Maltese is an option.

    # Population Percent
    1 East_Med 31.19
    2 West_Med 23.05
    3 North_Atlantic 15.88
    4 West_Asian 12.4
    5 Baltic 6.81
    6 Red_Sea 6.4
    7 Sub-Saharan 1.12
    8 Northeast_African 1.04
    9 East_Asian 0.89
    10 South_Asian 0.63
    11 Oceanian 0.59

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 South_Italian 3.19
    2 East_Sicilian 3.27
    3 Central_Greek 5.23
    4 West_Sicilian 5.44
    5 Ashkenazi 6.35
    6 Algerian_Jewish 7
    7 Italian_Jewish 7.65
    8 Sephardic_Jewish 7.69
    9 Italian_Abruzzo 7.7
    10 Greek_Thessaly 10.88
    11 Tunisian_Jewish 11.48
    12 Libyan_Jewish 12.02
    13 Tuscan 12.36
    14 Cyprian 14.89
    15 Lebanese_Muslim 18.62
    16 North_Italian 18.7
    17 Syrian 19.41
    18 Bulgarian 19.77
    19 Tunisian 20.67
    20 Turkish 21.11

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 71.6% East_Sicilian + 28.4% Algerian_Jewish @ 1.88
    2 74.4% West_Sicilian + 25.6% Cyprian @ 1.99
    3 58.2% Central_Greek + 41.8% Algerian_Jewish @ 2.04
    4 90.4% South_Italian + 9.6% Moroccan @ 2.05
    5 89.9% South_Italian + 10.1% Algerian @ 2.1
    6 89.6% South_Italian + 10.4% Tunisian @ 2.11
    7 90.6% South_Italian + 9.4% Mozabite_Berber @ 2.12
    8 80.9% West_Sicilian + 19.1% Samaritan @ 2.22
    9 52.7% Algerian_Jewish + 47.3% Italian_Abruzzo @ 2.26
    10 75.8% East_Sicilian + 24.2% Italian_Jewish @ 2.3
    11 65.3% Cyprian + 34.7% Spanish_Galicia @ 2.34
    12 82.1% West_Sicilian + 17.9% Lebanese_Christian @ 2.36
    13 57.5% West_Sicilian + 42.5% Algerian_Jewish @ 2.53
    14 64.3% Cyprian + 35.7% Portuguese @ 2.55
    15 51.6% South_Italian + 48.4% East_Sicilian @ 2.56
    16 78.1% East_Sicilian + 21.9% Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.56
    17 68% Cyprian + 32% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.66
    18 69.2% Cyprian + 30.8% Southwest_French @ 2.67
    19 94.1% East_Sicilian + 5.9% Sardinian @ 2.67
    20 62% Algerian_Jewish + 38% Greek_Thessaly @ 2.67
    # Population Percent
    1 East_Med 30.25
    2 West_Med 19.71
    3 West_Asian 11.94
    4 North_Sea 10.95
    5 Atlantic 9.93
    6 Red_Sea 6.31
    7 Baltic 4.8
    8 Eastern_Euro 2.52
    9 Sub-Saharan 1.06
    10 Northeast_African 1.03
    11 Oceanian 0.53
    12 Southeast_Asian 0.48
    13 South_Asian 0.47

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 East_Sicilian 5.44
    2 South_Italian 5.61
    3 Italian_Jewish 6.04
    4 Central_Greek 6.33
    5 Ashkenazi 6.63
    6 Algerian_Jewish 7.51
    7 West_Sicilian 8.18
    8 Sephardic_Jewish 8.58
    9 Italian_Abruzzo 8.93
    10 Greek_Thessaly 10.31
    11 Libyan_Jewish 11.32
    12 Greek 11.35
    13 Tunisian_Jewish 11.86
    14 Tuscan 12.52
    15 Cyprian 13.94
    16 Lebanese_Muslim 17.85
    17 Syrian 18.18
    18 North_Italian 18.69
    19 Bulgarian 18.72
    20 Samaritan 19.63

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 65.7% Italian_Jewish + 34.3% Greek_Thessaly @ 3.19
    2 59.3% Algerian_Jewish + 40.7% Greek_Thessaly @ 3.42
    3 67.9% Central_Greek + 32.1% Libyan_Jewish @ 3.82
    4 52.7% Greek_Thessaly + 47.3% Libyan_Jewish @ 3.88
    5 65.7% Cyprian + 34.3% Spanish_Galicia @ 4.03
    6 52.2% Italian_Jewish + 47.8% Central_Greek @ 4.16
    7 86.8% Italian_Jewish + 13.2% Moldavian @ 4.17
    8 75.3% East_Sicilian + 24.7% Libyan_Jewish @ 4.2
    9 56.9% Central_Greek + 43.1% Algerian_Jewish @ 4.23
    10 55.9% East_Sicilian + 44.1% Italian_Jewish @ 4.27
    11 89.9% Italian_Jewish + 10.1% Ukrainian @ 4.32
    12 89.6% Italian_Jewish + 10.4% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 4.33
    13 65.3% East_Sicilian + 34.7% Algerian_Jewish @ 4.36
    14 82.9% Italian_Jewish + 17.1% Romanian @ 4.37
    15 88% Italian_Jewish + 12% Hungarian @ 4.4
    16 81.5% Italian_Jewish + 18.5% Bulgarian @ 4.41
    17 54.7% Italian_Jewish + 45.3% Ashkenazi @ 4.47
    18 85% Italian_Jewish + 15% Serbian @ 4.47
    19 88.4% Italian_Jewish + 11.6% Croatian @ 4.48
    20 72.1% Italian_Jewish + 27.9% Greek @ 4.48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    My turn. Try this one? I gave both Eurogenes K13 and K15. Also Maltese is an option.
    I think Calabrian, Sicilian speaking part.

    What about this one? (k13):

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 East_Med 30.56
    2 West_Med 24.19
    3 North_Atlantic 18.38
    4 West_Asian 12.11
    5 Red_Sea 7.34
    6 Baltic 6.57
    7 East_Asian 0.66
    8 Oceanian 0.17
    9 Amerindian 0.03

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 South_Italian 4.19
    2 West_Sicilian 4.45
    3 East_Sicilian 4.62
    4 Central_Greek 5.82
    5 Italian_Abruzzo 6.76
    6 Ashkenazi 8.01
    7 Sephardic_Jewish 8.61
    8 Italian_Jewish 8.7
    9 Algerian_Jewish 8.84
    10 Tuscan 10.52
    11 Greek_Thessaly 10.87
    12 Tunisian_Jewish 13.01
    13 Libyan_Jewish 13.65
    14 Cyprian 16.75
    15 North_Italian 16.86
    16 Bulgarian 19.66
    17 Lebanese_Muslim 20.57
    18 Syrian 21.36
    19 Romanian 21.45
    20 Tunisian 22.1
    Mc Donald:
    Most likely fit is 62.4% (+- 9.5%) Europe (various subcontinents)
    and 37.6% (+- 9.5%) Mideast (various subcontinents)
    Dodecad World9:
    1 50% S_Italian_Sicilian +50% Dutch @ 1.083
    2 50% German +50% S_Italian @ 1.126
    3 50% Dutch +50% S_Italian @ 1.148

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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudio View Post
    But do you think they are a good representation of what the population inside the city walls was like in the 15th Century?
    Iím a bit rusty on my late Byzantine history but toward the fall of Constantinople lots of Byzantines emigrated all across Italy,if I remember correctly they kicked started the renaissance in Italy. (Venice,Rome,Calabria)
    Iím not sure what Admixture groups moved in to Constantinople after the fall,Turks,Slavs,Balkan groups??
    Modern Constantinople population might plot/or be different to late Byzantine era?
    Also, the Merchant Republics of Genoa, Venice and Pisa had warehouses and merchants living between Alexandria and Aleppo for many many centuries prior to and after the crusader period.................hundreds of years of dropping seeds in an area will make a mark


    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, BY143483 )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-L22 ydna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtdna

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dimanto View Post
    I think Calabrian, Sicilian speaking part.

    What about this one? (k13):

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 East_Med 30.56
    2 West_Med 24.19
    3 North_Atlantic 18.38
    4 West_Asian 12.11
    5 Red_Sea 7.34
    6 Baltic 6.57
    7 East_Asian 0.66
    8 Oceanian 0.17
    9 Amerindian 0.03

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 South_Italian 4.19
    2 West_Sicilian 4.45
    3 East_Sicilian 4.62
    4 Central_Greek 5.82
    5 Italian_Abruzzo 6.76
    6 Ashkenazi 8.01
    7 Sephardic_Jewish 8.61
    8 Italian_Jewish 8.7
    9 Algerian_Jewish 8.84
    10 Tuscan 10.52
    11 Greek_Thessaly 10.87
    12 Tunisian_Jewish 13.01
    13 Libyan_Jewish 13.65
    14 Cyprian 16.75
    15 North_Italian 16.86
    16 Bulgarian 19.66
    17 Lebanese_Muslim 20.57
    18 Syrian 21.36
    19 Romanian 21.45
    20 Tunisian 22.1


    Trapani.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    Trapani.
    How did I do? My guess was Calabria.
    Mc Donald:
    Most likely fit is 62.4% (+- 9.5%) Europe (various subcontinents)
    and 37.6% (+- 9.5%) Mideast (various subcontinents)
    Dodecad World9:
    1 50% S_Italian_Sicilian +50% Dutch @ 1.083
    2 50% German +50% S_Italian @ 1.126
    3 50% Dutch +50% S_Italian @ 1.148

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dimanto View Post
    How did I do? My guess was Calabria.
    Palermo. I notice the western part of Palermo province -- towns like Cinisi, Partinico, Balestrate -- a lot of the results come up modeled as 90% South Italian, 10% Moroccan/Tunisian/Algerian, while the eastern part of Palermo province is closer to Messina, Calabria, or Crete/Dodecanese with higher Caucasus.

    What were the ones you posted?
    Last edited by Sikeliot; 08-25-2019 at 12:51 PM.

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