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Thread: From K to R1b P312: The journey

  1. #1
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    Post From P to R1b P312: The journey

    I create this thread to talk about the journey of the R1b P312 ancestors and how they came to be, starting from P.


    Siberia :

    => P to R [ANE/ANS cluster: 70% Sungir; 30% Tianyuan]

    Eastern Europe :

    ==> R1 to R1b P297 [EHG : 50% ANE; 50% WHG); (Many WHG R1b found but they are not ancestors of M269)
    ===> R1b M269 to L51 [Steppes: 50% EHG; 50% CHG]

    Central Europe and maybe Northwestern Europe :

    ====> Maybe R1b L151 and at least P312 [Corded ware cluster : 75% Steppes; 25% Neolithic farmer]. (It starts to get tricky there because there many variation in mixtures, I'm talking only about the first R1b P312 to be born)




    I don't remember how was the first R1b P312 guy exactly, so maybe i'm wrong about him. And I'm not absolutely sure about all my percentage but I think they are pretty close.
    Last edited by Dieu; 08-19-2019 at 09:33 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dieu View Post
    [SNIP] 5% of the P312 guy nuclear dna is descended from the Ust-ishim cluster if we follow what I wrote lol, that is what stayed of the direct ancestor.
    According to wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_K-M9 Haplogroup K dates back to 47,000-50,000 years ago. Also, According to https://haplogroup.org/ystory/r-p312/ the age of R-P312 is about 4,800 years ago.

    Over 40,000 years came between the origin of K-M9 and the origin of R-P312. There possibility "Mr. P312" (the first person to have the P312 mutation) inheriting ANY non Y-DNA from Ust-Ishim (M-K9) is infinitesimally small.
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    That and the phylogenic position of Ust_Ishim is at this point still up for debate. Very early East Eurasian? Very early West Eurasian? It's own dead-end branch?
    Tianyuan being K2b is also pretty relevant to this story.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wing Genealogist View Post
    According to wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_K-M9 Haplogroup K dates back to 47,000-50,000 years ago. Also, According to https://haplogroup.org/ystory/r-p312/ the age of R-P312 is about 4,800 years ago.

    Over 40,000 years came between the origin of K-M9 and the origin of R-P312. There possibility "Mr. P312" (the first person to have the P312 mutation) inheriting ANY non Y-DNA from Ust-Ishim (M-K9) is infinitesimally small.
    That's true however all the cluster that formed the P312 guy if we exclude Ust-ishim cluster ofc didn't contain many K haplogroup : ( No K haplogroup in Sunghir, WHG, CHG, Neholithic farmer), the only K haplgroup found in WHG is R1b itself. And my point was aiming to the direct ancestor, not the others.
    Last edited by Dieu; 08-19-2019 at 07:05 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kale View Post
    That and the phylogenic position of Ust_Ishim is at this point still up for debate. Very early East Eurasian? Very early West Eurasian? It's own dead-end branch?
    Tianyuan being K2b is also pretty relevant to this story.
    Dead branch for sure but very close to the other K bearer at that point in time. And the split between east and west wasn't that deep.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dieu View Post
    No K haplogroup in Sunghir, WHG, CHG, Neholithic farmer), the only K haplgroup found in WHG are R1b itself.
    But there is K is Oase1. The same branch as Ust_Ishim
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kale View Post
    But there is K is Oase1. The same branch as Ust_Ishim
    He is a dead-end but yes same branch as Ust_Ishim.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dieu View Post
    He is a dead-end but yes same branch as Ust_Ishim.
    Tianyuan's being K2b is similar to or only marginally more certain than Ust Ishim's being K2a. Tianyuan has more K2b defining SNPs as opposed to 2 for Ust Ishim. But the latter has a higher quality.
    Oase's being K2a would have remained just an interesting possibility without Ust Ishim. But together they make moderately strong cases for early divergent K2a.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dieu View Post
    I create this thread to talk about the journey of the R1b P312 ancestors and how they came to be, starting from K (since we don't know much before K).


    Siberia :

    K [Ust-Ishim cluster]
    => P to R [ANE cluster: 75% Sungir; 25% Ust-Ishim]

    Eastern Europe :

    ==> R1 to R1b P297 [EHG : 50% ANE; 50% WHG); (Many WHG R1b found but they are not ancestors of M269)
    ===> R1b M269 to L51 [Steppes: 50% EHG; 50% CHG]

    Central Europe and maybe Northwestern Europe :

    ====> Maybe R1b L151 and at least P312 [Corded ware cluster : 75% Steppes; 25% Neolithic farmer]. (It starts to get tricky there because there many variation in mixtures, I'm talking only about the first R1b P312 to be born)




    I don't remember how was the first R1b P312 guy exactly, so maybe i'm wrong about him. And I'm not absolutely sure about all my percentage but I think they are pretty close.

    5% of the P312 guy nuclear dna is descended from the Ust-ishim cluster if we follow what I wrote, that is what stayed of the direct ancestor.
    Interesting stuffs...in particular I'm interested in the EHG WHG ANE proportions. I've heard already that EHG= ANE+WHG but did not know that WHG was that high (50%). Can you provide a source for this ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    Interesting stuffs...in particular I'm interested in the EHG WHG ANE proportions. I've heard already that EHG= ANE+WHG but did not know that WHG was that high (50%). Can you provide a source for this ?
    I don't remembe where I saw it, but some say that WHG had already some ANE admix (which is plausible since there many R1b WHG). So WHG could be something + little ANE and EHG= that something + a lot of ANE.
    Last edited by Dieu; 08-19-2019 at 06:00 PM.

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