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Thread: Early U106: A Hypothesis

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Here's a map showing what Czebreszuk called Beaker's Northern Province.

    Attachment 32694
    So U106 does haves something to do with Beakers?

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radboud View Post
    Yeah, that report is outdated as we pointed that out last year ( I don't know why Finn is still using this report), although his arguments were reasonable in 2015.

    I took a look on the U106 Yahoo forum to see Iain McDonald's latest view about U106. I didn't quote his whole post, because this post was directed to a member:



    So McDonald holds the view that R1b-Z156 and other minor subclades migrated to Central Europe, while most U106 subclades like R1b-Z381 moved to the north (or were already there).
    IMO not outdated (because I see no revisited descriptions) but it gives valuable adds, thanks.

    The most important thing is that the Scandinavian lines only represent a fraction (mostly Z18,Z9) of the whole bunch of lines of R1b U106. And if this specific lines (Z18, Z9) were prior to the rest then ok....but that isn't the case. So I can't see no reason why Scandinavia is to be seen as the 'delivery room' of R1b U106. Many R1b U106 lines never came from Scandinavia and many lines never reached Scandinavia.

    So of course R1b U106 stays a typical Germanic marker, but not an unique Germanic marker.

    This can easily be illustrated with the quotes of Mc Donald.

    R-U106 is common in Germanic countries, although many R-U106 branches have non-Germanic origins.
    R-Z156 is a minor branch of R-U106, probably representing about 15-20% of its population today. Based on the Corded Ware culture model, it probably formed around 2500 BC +/- about 200 years. Georgaphically, it seems to be more common in the southern range of R-U106, more towards the origins of the Celtic people.
    @rms2 this is not my quote so don't blame me for mentioning the C...word

    Geographically and historically, R-DF98 is common in a wide band, stretching from the British Isles, through France and the Low Countries, across southern and central Germany. That band probably continues eastwards into Austria, Hungary, Romania and the Ukraine, but we have fewer testers from these countries.
    No mentioning of Scandinavia, on the contrary, it shows that the history of R1b U106 is more diversified than may be previous thought....
    Last edited by Finn; 08-25-2019 at 06:47 PM.

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  4. #23
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    Switzerland got 23% R1B-U106 from their paternal lines.
    Switzerland is known as a place where mostly Continental Celtic tribes dwelt.
    Switzerland was also part of the Roman Empire.

    Czech Republic got plenty of R1B, 29.4%, tbut I do not know what are the clades there, exactly.
    I suppose a significant part of Czech Republic R1B is R1B-U106.

    Tyrol does not have any R1B-U106, but has instead 20% R1B-U152.
    So, the people that brought West Germanic language in Tyrol were not bearing R1B-U152.
    Tyrol does have 20% I1A2 and 7% I2B and 13% R1A-Z280.

    So I would not be so sure that all R1B-U106 was spread by West Germanic or Germanic speakers.
    Who knows.
    Things might be a lot more complex.
    Some South Germany Celtic tribes, might have also carried R1B-U106 branches, because Bavaria also got 24% R1B-U106 and Lower Saxony got 29% R1B-U106.
    But for the moment, the branches of R1B-U106 and how these are spread, geographically, is not known.

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    L48 is the "Big Brother" to Z156 as they are both direct subclades of Z381, with L48 being older and likely more common* than "Little Brother" Z156. L48 includes (as subclades) L47 and Z9 and Z9 includes (as subclades) Z326 and Z8.

    While some L48 (and its subclades) are found in central Europe, overall, it is much more commonly found in Scandinavia (and England).


    *Currently the U106 Y-DNA Project at FTDNA is showing roughly half of the folks in the project falling under L48, and Z156 is only about 15% of the Project. As with most DNA projects, membership is heavily skewed towards folks with ancestry from the British Isles and is especially under-reported for the central European regions. The fact Ancient/Medieval DNA results shows Z156 as being more of a Southerly clade of U106 we do expect Z156 to comprise a higher proportion of U106 than what is currently reported in the Project.
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  7. #25
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    Ever since the days of the old DNA Forum, I have been arguing that the tendency to treat U106 as monolithic and ignore any differences between its subclades was likely masking a great deal of important information. Although I believe some attempt was made to investigate the Z156 subclade, this is the first effort I am aware of to analyze the primary U106 subclades. As I have long suspected, like P312 subclades, they are not all identical.

    So congratulations on your efforts, which in my opinion are long overdue.

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    R-Z306 and R-Z304 are fairly minor branching events that share geographies with R-Z156.

    R-DF98 represents roughly a third of R-Z156, about 5-7% of its population, and perhaps a few million men worldwide.

    I think most of the Uzbek l11 belong to the z304. Therefore, approximately 200 thousand Uzbek men are added as hidden reserves. There are also among the Tatars and Kazakhs.
    Last edited by Scat; 08-25-2019 at 08:23 PM.

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    That band probably continues eastwards into Austria, Hungary, Romania and the Ukraine, but we have fewer testers from these countries
    That's right. And more deeply east into Volga region and Central asia

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  12. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    The mention of it is deja vu to me, because I seem to recall you citing that McDonald report not too long ago. I think my response was pretty much the same, only now even more time has passed since 2015.

    I respect McDonald, but I don't think modern y haplogroup distribution is very reliable as evidence of origin. Prior to about 2012, it was all we had and was pretty much the basis of all the voluminous arguments at the old dna forums.

    IMHO U106 was in the northern province of Kurgan Bell Beaker. This is from p. 481 of Janusz Czebreszuk's article, “Bell Beakers from West to East”, in the book, Ancient Europe 8000 B.C. - A.D. 1000, edited by Peter Bogucki:



    I'm guessing U106, S1194, DF99, DF19, and L238 were all there because none of them turned up among Olalde et al's Beaker samples, and the northern province was the one Beaker zone that went pretty much unsampled. Add to that the discovery of RISE 98 in Sweden dated to around 2300 BC. Then U106 shows up in Unetice in Czechia where it apparently wasn't during the Beaker Period, which makes it look like it was up in the northern province and subsequently moved south.

    I could be wrong, of course.
    Definitely a possibility. Only issue I see with it is that the Danish beakers are seen as having most in common with Lower Rhine beakers and Polish beakers more in common with Moravian beakers. That would seem more likely to me to point to P312. I would still tend to think U106 was excluded from the beaker network until the very latest stages. I do agree that the easiest way to Sweden is via Denmark and the Danish Islands but a crossing direct across the Baltic from the south Baltic area also seems possible. Its possible that the U106 Swede was a captive or some other form of outsider in the battle axe culture given his unusual burial but im not sure that needs to point to him being from beaker culture. However, to find a U106 guy in a sample of just 2 or 3 Swedish battle axe culture must either indicate many more or just a complete fluke. That of course is the problem with tiny samples. One thing I learned from reading up on CW in northern Poland and to a lesser extent the Baltic states is that they were involved in multi-directional contacts including Sweden and also contacts to the east.

    They really needed a bigger sample to avoid the danger of unrepresentative flukes distorting the picture. I dont think we will know till they test another handful or more Swedish battle axe people successfully for yDNA. Oh and some Danish beaker people! I really hope they are planning some testing/more testing of those areas.

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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    The mention of it is deja vu to me, because I seem to recall you citing that McDonald report not too long ago. I think my response was pretty much the same, only now even more time has passed since 2015.

    I respect McDonald, but I don't think modern y haplogroup distribution is very reliable as evidence of origin. Prior to about 2012, it was all we had and was pretty much the basis of all the voluminous arguments at the old dna forums.

    IMHO U106 was in the northern province of Kurgan Bell Beaker. This is from p. 481 of Janusz Czebreszuk's article, “Bell Beakers from West to East”, in the book, Ancient Europe 8000 B.C. - A.D. 1000, edited by Peter Bogucki:



    I'm guessing U106, S1194, DF99, DF19, and L238 were all there because none of them turned up among Olalde et al's Beaker samples, and the northern province was the one Beaker zone that went pretty much unsampled. Add to that the discovery of RISE 98 in Sweden dated to around 2300 BC. Then U106 shows up in Unetice in Czechia where it apparently wasn't during the Beaker Period, which makes it look like it was up in the northern province and subsequently moved south.

    I could be wrong, of course.
    This "Northern Province" makes since to me based on what I posted above. Not too hard to get from L11 in the Northern Province to some U106 in Sweden, P312 in the Netherlands/SCG, and S1194 pretty much staying put in the general vicinity...an obvious simplification based on the available evidence.
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  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    Definitely a possibility. Only issue I see with it is that the Danish beakers are seen as having most in common with Lower Rhine beakers and Polish beakers more in common with Moravian beakers. That would seem more likely to me to point to P312. I would still tend to think U106 was excluded from the beaker network until the very latest stages. I do agree that the easiest way to Sweden is via Denmark and the Danish Islands but a crossing direct across the Baltic from the south Baltic area also seems possible. Its possible that the U106 Swede was a captive or some other form of outsider in the battle axe culture given his unusual burial but im not sure that needs to point to him being from beaker culture. However, to find a U106 guy in a sample of just 2 or 3 Swedish battle axe culture must either indicate many more or just a complete fluke. That of course is the problem with tiny samples. One thing I learned from reading up on CW in northern Poland and to a lesser extent the Baltic states is that they were involved in multi-directional contacts including Sweden and also contacts to the east.

    They really needed a bigger sample to avoid the danger of unrepresentative flukes distorting the picture. I dont think we will know till they test another handful or more Swedish battle axe people successfully for yDNA. Oh and some Danish beaker people! I really hope they are planning some testing/more testing of those areas.
    Me too. The only way we can get a true picture is obviously through more samples, as I'm sure we all agree. Can I just check because of a pivotal part of this discussion: does RISE 98 have enough of the right SNPs to be close to 100% sure he was U106? On another recent thread here some putative early 106ers were rightly discounted based on the number of derived SNPs in the files. I assume RISE 98 is unambiguous but I don't remember.
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