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Thread: Early U106: A Hypothesis

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    [SNIP] does RISE 98 have enough of the right SNPs to be close to 100% sure he was U106? On another recent thread here some putative early 106ers were rightly discounted based on the number of derived SNPs in the files. I assume RISE 98 is unambiguous but I don't remember.
    IIRC RISE 98 was of very high quality (for Ancient DNA remains) and was able to be called for some subclades of U106 as well as U106 itself. We are confident he is U106 and even confident where he falls below U106.
    Gedmatch DNA: M032736 Gedcom: 6613110.
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    co-administrator: Y-DNA R-U106 Haplogroup Project

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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wing Genealogist View Post
    IIRC RISE 98 was of very high quality (for Ancient DNA remains) and was able to be called for some subclades of U106 as well as U106 itself. We are confident he is U106 and even confident where he falls below U106.
    Thanks. Where does he fall?
    Living DNA Cautious mode:
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    Cornwall: 8%
    North England-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,280 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales
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  4. #33
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    Fascinating. So the origin of R1b-U106 could very well be in Sweden, and not along the Wadden Sea and Northern Germany, but we're not sure... Have there been any findings for L48 and its subclades?
    Genealogical breakdown (%):

    West Yorkshire - 35.15625
    Hesse - 12.5
    Poitou-Charentes - 12.5
    Franconia - 12.3046875
    Brittany - 6.25
    Auvergne - 3.125
    Midi-Pyrénées - 3.125
    Dublin - 3.125
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    Roscommon - 1.5625
    Kilkenny - 1.5625
    Somerset - 0.78125
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    Baden - 0.1953125

  5. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    Thanks. Where does he fall?
    RISE98 U106>Z2265>FGC36477 (BY30097-). Over 99% of U106 is BY30097+, so RISE98 is an early outlier. We believe his clade is extinct (as the vast majority of clades from this period are extinct).
    Gedmatch DNA: M032736 Gedcom: 6613110.
    Gedmatch Genesis: WH4547538
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  7. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralex004 View Post
    Fascinating. So the origin of R1b-U106 could very well be in Sweden, and not along the Wadden Sea and Northern Germany, but we're not sure... Have there been any findings for L48 and its subclades?
    If you look on the map at: http://www.communitywalk.com/map/index/2236108 you can choose which clade bubbles show up. Just remember that L48 includes L47, Z9, Z326 & Z8. To date, we have mapped 22 L48 and subclade samples.


    I personally do not feel we have enough ancient DNA remains to make an educated guess about the origins of any of these clades yet. Alan had previously https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post594484 given good reasoning for the idea U106 originated to the East and only later migrated west.
    Last edited by Wing Genealogist; 08-26-2019 at 01:35 AM. Reason: added link to earlier post
    Gedmatch DNA: M032736 Gedcom: 6613110.
    Gedmatch Genesis: WH4547538
    co-administrator: Y-DNA R-U106 Haplogroup Project

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    If U106 originated in Sweden, then the implication is U106's father was also in Sweden. U106, P312, and S1194 all go back to the same L151, L11, PF6543 ancestor.

    Couple of possibilities:
    -L151,L11,PF6543 had sons/grandsons/great grandsons etc. born in/near Germany that eventually result in the creation of the U106, P312, S1194 SNPs. U106 or one of his descendants/subclades moves to Sweden

    -L151,L11,PF6543 had sons/grandsons/great grandsons etc. born in Sweden that eventually result in the creation of the U106, P312, S1194 SNPs. The P312 and S1194 lines and some U106 subclades leave Sweden for Germany
    Y-DNA R-Z49>Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    Ancestry: 37% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German 3% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French & Dutch, 1% India

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    An 'out of Sweden' theory sounds a bit crazy although its bizarre that Swedish battle axe people used the exact beaker rite (other than choice of portable goods) for 300 years before any beaker or other CW group appear to have used it. Then it seems to suddenly appear in both beaker and some eastern CW groups c. 2500BC or a little earlier. The farmer substrate in beaker has been described as being like Swedish TRB or GAC too! It still feels too weird to even argue a long shot like that without feeling like i've been possessed by Erich Von Daniken - but maybe im being too conventional LOL :o)

    Maybe a less controversial explanation is that Sweden religiously influenced the CW in north-central Poland (maybe crossing the Baltic to Swedish ritual sites was like a pilgrimage just as seems to have been the case at Orkney in the Neolithic Stonehenge in the beaker era) and in that way it spread down the Oder and Oder-Vistula inter-fluve to CW groups further south too. Perhaps beaker was formed by a Polish CW group using the Swedish style rite that reached Germany c. 2550BC and formed the beaker culture there. Admittedly there are gaps in joining the dots. There are late Polish CW groups who do use the Swedish/bell beaker burial rules but they are a little late to rule out it simply being beaker influence or early enough to actually be the origin of beaker.
    Last edited by alan; 08-26-2019 at 11:00 PM.

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  13. #38
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    IMHO, This is a very useful and interesting thread and the inputs thus far appear dominantly thoughtful.

    One parallel aspect of the original date period for U106 is the question, what trade was going on in the South Baltic Region (including Jutland, East Denmark, Sth Sweden, Gotland, Öland, plus what became Pomerania (Nth Germany & Nth Poland) and the Baltic states coastal area.

    Amber was originally one of the most important commodities and during the bronze age and into the iron age, became a form of currency used for purchasing metals from other regions. Evidence for just how important trade was in the region, is underscored by the extent of the Tollense Battle (est 1300-1200 BCE or 3300-3200 BP) fought in the Pomerania region near Wolin Island Sth Baltic and regarded as the best-preserved ancient battlefield in the world. The emerging evidence is that this area was on a well-established trade route than had been there for 100s of years before the battle, maybe, up to 2000 years before the battle as there is evidence of Baltic Amber trade going back that far). That, in turn, tells us that people from many other places would have heard about the area and had incentives to go there either to trade or to 'make their fortune'. Amber was found all along the Sth Baltic coast and up the coast of the Baltic states.

    What we really need from Tollense, is detailed DNA evidence as to who was there and a better makeup of the two groups in conflict. Current data is just too sparse.

    Below is a link to a reasonable well-formulated description of the battle site. One would reasonably assume that U106, in particular, had to feature in this battle. If not then why not ?.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--yU...SvGUF-z3-9bkaI

    For my own part as an S1194 descendant, am convinced (as of today) that U106 and S1194 (and even the 4th brother clade A8053) were all alongside each other in the Sth Baltic / Scandinavian region. However, the current DNA evidence shows clearly U106 had a bigger reach than S1194 ever did. Interestingly, while S1194 and U106 show up in the same places in Europe, S1194 origins in UK tend to be away from areas of known U106 density. In UK U106 is densest on the east coast of England (attributed to migrations of Jutes, Angles, Saxons & Frisians) & this density declines markedly across to the west side of England. On the other hand. S1194 tends to show up (places of origin) in the south (border with Cornwall), the west (border with Wales) & the north (border with Scotland), or over the border into the Scottish lowlands. Those areas are right away from the traditionally densest U106 areas. That is an interesting contrast to what we see of U106 & S1194 in the countries over the channel & the north sea from England.

    I guess my point here is to make a case that U106 and S1194 have a strong affinity that I am not seeing between P312 & S1194.

    What are others's views on which son of L11 (L151) came 1st ? - was it U106 (I think Iain McDonald has suggested it could be), was it P312 (just based on the massive numbers today), it would seem not to be S1194 or A8053.

    Interesting !.
    Last edited by dsm; 08-27-2019 at 12:24 AM. Reason: changed a word

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    This recent paper 'The road to Scandinavia's bronze age: Trade routes, metal provenance, and mixing' (with an extract) highlights the activity in the Nth German/Poland/Scandinavian region. It is relevant as it would have played a role in the evolution of U106 in these areas. It may not suggest the actual origin but surely tells us why people would be drawn to the region and develop their clans.

    Note that the Tollense battle site & route fits perfectly with the evidence for a trade port either in or near Wolin, perhaps Stralsund just close by, perhaps both. Wolin had a naturally protected harbour that was very easy to defend.

    EXTRACT :- "The results of these analyses reveal the trading networks established to import raw metals as well as crafted weapons into Scandinavia via two major maritime trade routes: one leading down across the Baltic Sea towards the Únĕtice (a Bronze Age civilization in what is now eastern Germany and Bohemia), and another leading to the British Isles."


    The road to Scandinavia's bronze age: Trade routes, metal provenance, and mixing
    https://phys.org/news/2019-07-road-s...lHWg-UnUO-wjEs

    A link to Wolin:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolin

    A Link to Stralsund:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stralsund

    5000 years of Baltic Amber trade
    https://www.thoughtco.com/baltic-amb...d-resin-170071
    Last edited by dsm; 08-26-2019 at 11:38 PM. Reason: Added ref to Tollense, Wolin & Stralsund + Amber trade

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  17. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsm View Post
    IMHO, This is a very useful and interesting thread and the inputs thus far appear dominantly thoughtful.

    One parallel aspect of the original date period for U106 is the question, what trade was going on in the South Baltic Region (including Jutland, East Denmark, Sth Sweden, Gotland, Öland, plus what became Pomerania (Nth Germany & Nth Poland) and the Baltic states coastal area.

    Amber was originally one of the most important commodities and during the bronze age and into the iron age, became a form of currency used for purchasing metals from other regions. Evidence for just how important trade was in the region, is underscored by the extent of the Tollense Battle (est 1300-1200 BCE or 3300-3200 BP) fought in the Pomerania region near Wolin Island Sth Baltic and regarded as the best-preserved ancient battlefield in the world. The emerging evidence is that this area was on a well-established trade route than had been there for 100s of years before the battle, maybe, up to 2000 years before the battle as there is evidence of Baltic Amber trade going back that far). That, in turn, tells us that people from many other places would have heard about the area and had incentives to go there either to trade or to 'make their fortune'. Amber was found all along the Sth Baltic coast and up the coast of the Baltic states.

    What we really need from Tollense, is detailed DNA evidence as to who was there and a better makeup of the two groups in conflict. Current data is just too sparse.

    Below is a link to a reasonable well-formulated description of the battle site. One would reasonably assume that U106, in particular, had to feature in this battle. If not then why not ?.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--yU...SvGUF-z3-9bkaI

    For my own part as an S1194 descendant, am convinced (as of today) that U106 and S1194 (and even the 4th brother clade A8053) were all alongside each other in the Sth Baltic / Scandinavian region. However, the current DNA evidence shows clearly U106 had a bigger reach than S1194 ever did. Interestingly, while S1194 and U106 show up in the same places in Europe, S1194 origins in UK tend to be away from areas of known U106 density. In UK U106 is densest on the east coast of England (attributed to migrations of Jutes, Angles, Saxons & Frisians) & this density declines markedly across to the west side of England. On the other hand. S1194 tends to show up (places of origin) in the south (border with Cornwall), the west (border with Wales) & the north (border with Scotland), or over the border into the Scottish lowlands. Those areas are right away from the traditionally densest U106 areas. That is an interesting contrast to what we see of U106 & S1194 in the countries over the channel & the north sea from England.

    I guess my point here is to make a case that U106 and S1194 have a strong affinity that I am not seeing between P312 & S1194.

    What are others's views on which son of L11 (L151) came 1st ? - was it U106 (I think Ian McDonald has suggested it could be), was it P312 (just based on the massive numbers today), it would seem not to be S1194 or A8053.

    Interesting !.
    Thanks for an interesting post. When you say "One would reasonably assume that U106, in particular, had to feature in this battle. If not then why not ?." I wonder about I1 and the relative haplogroup weightings in the recent Viking paper. Is that because you expect I1 would be less well represented a little outside Scandinavia than U106 at that time? If so I'd probably agree.
    Living DNA Cautious mode:
    Wales-related ancestry: 86.8%
    Cornwall: 8%
    North England-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,280 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales
    Mother's Y: traces to Llanvair Discoed, Wales

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