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Thread: An Ancient Harappan Genome Lacks Ancestry from Steppe Pastoralists or Iranian Farmers

  1. #1101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapporo View Post
    L1a2 may be a bit more nuanced in that it is tied to the BMAC or potentially brought in by IVCp/BMAC + Steppe enriched/mixed groups. Hence, it's high percentage/frequency in populations ranging from Pamiris and some Pashtuns/Northern Pakistani populations to Haryana Jaats/Rors.

    I am not sure where exactly L1a2 originates/was formed but I think it's possible it came along a more Northernly route into South Asia in comparison to L1a1 (based on its frequency in Chechens). On a site note, a Chechen that shows up as a distant match for me on 23andMe is L1a2.
    Deep rooted L-lineages in castes and tribes of South India shows what ever the distribution was there it is prior to MLBA era movement of R1a people, since these group lack big R1a-Y7 percentage. That correlates with the Chalcolithc/EBA sample of Zagros since there is a opinion some of the early movement prior/during IVC was from Elam and Iran_N people in India. There is also some proof from skeletons of Inamgaon and artifacts of Ahar culture about cultural/physical similarities with Mehrgarh.


    L-M20 was found 68% in the Korova tribe from Karnataka, 38% in the Bharwad caste from Junagarh district in Gujarat, 21% in Charan caste from Junagarh district in Gujarat and 17% in the Kare Vokkal tribe from Uttara Kannada in Karnataka.(Shah 2011) L-M20 is also found at 32.35% in the Vokkaligas and at 17.82% in the Lingayats of Karnataka. Also around 25% in Kammas with around 7% belonging to L-M357. L-M20 is also found at 20.7% among the Ambalakarar,

    Given such as reach and diversity of L1a2 and some L-m357 in South, also prevalent theory of Nag vamsa having mixed with Pallava governors, This is probably old correlating with the previous groups like J2, H1, R2 etc... rather with newer R1a-y7 like people who came after MLBA. None of the South Indian populations other than Nairs are Steppe enriched. The Nairs have recent history of mixing with MLBA populations which is not common among other groups in South. Given these facts your assumption of Steppe enrichment in early L1a looks weak when considering the whole population rather than Jats.

    Based on what is observed in South, I would say the early L1a had some Armenian/Iran_N like autosome mixed with H1a people but during later migrations of Saka/Kushan people got good posts in admin and army so expanded in Haryana/Punjab/Rajasthan but were not fully integrated into Vedic society of R1/H1/R2 people.
    Y: H-M69 -> H-M82 -> SK1225 -> H-Z5888 -> H-Z5890 -> H-CTS8144 [CTS8144/PF1741/M5498] -> Z34531 (H1a1a4b3b1a8~)
    found 2875 BCE -> Jiroft/IVC Periphery 11459 Shahr-i-Sokte BA2
    mtDNA:U2a1a

    G25 Ancients Dist 0.79 IND_Roopkund_A 51.05 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2 46.64 MAR_Iberomaurusian2.04PAK_Katelai_IA0.19 TKM_Gonur2_BA 0.08

    Lactose Persistence rs3213871 rs4988243 rs4988183 rs3769005 rs2236783
    found -> DA125, Kangju

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    Quote Originally Posted by tipirneni View Post
    Deep rooted L-lineages in castes and tribes of South India shows what ever the distribution was there it is prior to MLBA era movement of R1a people, since these group lack big R1a-Y7 percentage. That correlates with the Chalcolithc/EBA sample of Zagros since there is a opinion some of the early movement prior/during IVC was from Elam and Iran_N people in India. There is also some proof from skeletons of Inamgaon and artifacts of Ahar culture about cultural/physical similarities with Mehrgarh.


    L-M20 was found 68% in the Korova tribe from Karnataka, 38% in the Bharwad caste from Junagarh district in Gujarat, 21% in Charan caste from Junagarh district in Gujarat and 17% in the Kare Vokkal tribe from Uttara Kannada in Karnataka.(Shah 2011) L-M20 is also found at 32.35% in the Vokkaligas and at 17.82% in the Lingayats of Karnataka. Also around 25% in Kammas with around 7% belonging to L-M357. L-M20 is also found at 20.7% among the Ambalakarar,

    Given such as reach and diversity of L1a2 and some L-m357 in South, also prevalent theory of Nag vamsa having mixed with Pallava governors, This is probably old correlating with the previous groups like J2, H1, R2 etc... rather with newer R1a-y7 like people who came after MLBA. None of the South Indian populations other than Nairs are Steppe enriched. The Nairs have recent history of mixing with MLBA populations which is not common among other groups in South. Given these facts your assumption of Steppe enrichment in early L1a looks weak when considering the whole population rather than Jats.

    Based on what is observed in South, I would say the early L1a had some Armenian/Iran_N like autosome mixed with H1a people but during later migrations of Saka/Kushan people got good posts in admin and army so expanded in Haryana/Punjab/Rajasthan but were not fully integrated into Vedic society of R1/H1/R2 people.
    Apart from the usual nonsense I agree with you. But I think L1a2 have a slightly older presence than L1a1 in South India. L1a2 predates the first farmers in the south that is why it is present in hill tribes and other lower castes. Whereas L1a1 is more frequent in farming pops and is rather absent among tribals. There is one old L1a2 line from AP. Then there is Arlus from central India who also seems to be in a novel subclade. That said both L1a1 and L1a2 are rather young with yfull estimates of around 8000 years. I would estimate their entry time to south india to about 3000-4000 ybp.
     

    My ancestral ydna haplogroups

    My Y-Line - R1a-Z93+L657+ Y7+
    Maternal Grandfather's Y-Line - L1a2-M357
    Paternal GM's family Y-Line - C1b-P92+ K96+
    Maternal GM's family Y-Line - J2a1-L26(M47- M67- M68- L24-)

    Ydna haplogroups of my ftdna family finder matches

    Second-Fourth Cousins
    R1a-Z93+ Y40+
    R1a-M17(not further tested)
    R2a-M124+ L295-(2)
    Q1a-L56+ Y2659+ Z5902+

    Third-Fifth Cousins
    R1a-M17(3)(Not further tested)
    J2b2-M241
    L1a1-M27+
    F-M89(possibly H3?)

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    Quote Originally Posted by tipirneni View Post
    Given such as reach and diversity of L1a2 and some L-m357 in South, also prevalent theory of Nag vamsa having mixed with Pallava governors, This is probably old correlating with the previous groups like J2, H1, R2 etc... rather with newer R1a-y7 like people who came after MLBA. None of the South Indian populations other than Nairs are Steppe enriched. The Nairs have recent history of mixing with MLBA populations which is not common among other groups in South. Given these facts your assumption of Steppe enrichment in early L1a looks weak when considering the whole population rather than Jats.
    Don't forget the bunts who are also steppe enriched and they don't have any history of mixing with Brahmins. So I think the Nairs already had their steppe even before the mixing. In Reality the sambandham was not as common as it is often made out to be.
     

    My ancestral ydna haplogroups

    My Y-Line - R1a-Z93+L657+ Y7+
    Maternal Grandfather's Y-Line - L1a2-M357
    Paternal GM's family Y-Line - C1b-P92+ K96+
    Maternal GM's family Y-Line - J2a1-L26(M47- M67- M68- L24-)

    Ydna haplogroups of my ftdna family finder matches

    Second-Fourth Cousins
    R1a-Z93+ Y40+
    R1a-M17(not further tested)
    R2a-M124+ L295-(2)
    Q1a-L56+ Y2659+ Z5902+

    Third-Fifth Cousins
    R1a-M17(3)(Not further tested)
    J2b2-M241
    L1a1-M27+
    F-M89(possibly H3?)

  6. #1104
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    Quote Originally Posted by BMG View Post
    Don't forget the bunts who are also steppe enriched and they don't have any history of mixing with Brahmins. So I think the Nairs already had their steppe even before the mixing. In Reality the sambandham was not as common as it is often made out to be.
    Among Nairs too the Steppe seem to happen only among subset who were in some role. That is probably case with Bunts too. It looks like even among the L1 of Chitpavans there was early non-brahmin autosome which slowly got mixed with the Deshast and became more Brahmin like.
    Y: H-M69 -> H-M82 -> SK1225 -> H-Z5888 -> H-Z5890 -> H-CTS8144 [CTS8144/PF1741/M5498] -> Z34531 (H1a1a4b3b1a8~)
    found 2875 BCE -> Jiroft/IVC Periphery 11459 Shahr-i-Sokte BA2
    mtDNA:U2a1a

    G25 Ancients Dist 0.79 IND_Roopkund_A 51.05 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2 46.64 MAR_Iberomaurusian2.04PAK_Katelai_IA0.19 TKM_Gonur2_BA 0.08

    Lactose Persistence rs3213871 rs4988243 rs4988183 rs3769005 rs2236783
    found -> DA125, Kangju

  7. #1105
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    Do you guys think LT is an East or West Eurasian lineage?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BMG View Post
    These mtdna frequencies doesn't matter at all. Usually the hill tribes are extremely inbred due to their low numbers . 80% of their mtdna variation consist of just 3 or 4 haplotypes . Same goes for veddas . In many cases the mtdna among south Indians appear to be just a subset of North Indian variation . My guess is both M and R arrived in India from north east . The present day Bengal might have the maximum diversity of South Asian mtdna .
    So what arrived from the West?

  9. #1107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapporo View Post
    Ultimately, I think L1a is linked heavily with IVCp ancestry (especially L1a1) but L1a2 may be a bit more nuanced in that it is tied to the BMAC or potentially brought in by IVCp/BMAC + Steppe enriched/mixed groups. Hence, it's high percentage/frequency in populations ranging from Pamiris and some Pashtuns/Northern Pakistani populations to Haryana Jaats/Rors.
    Rors are 29% L and have quite a different ydna profile from jaats for some reason. Nagy 2007 is the only reference I have for Jaats. In this comparison Rors have more c1b, R2, h, j, and r1a along with less L and Q than Jaats.

  10. #1108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleph View Post
    Rors are 29% L and have quite a different ydna profile from jaats for some reason. Nagy 2007 is the only reference I have for Jaats. In this comparison Rors have more c1b, R2, h, j, and r1a along with less L and Q than Jaats.
    There is a 2017 paper from Mahal with data on Jatt Sikhs and Hindu Jaats and a more recent paper on Brokpa Dards from Ladakh which also has some Rajasthan and Jatt Sikh Y-DNA (it's mostly numbers related to L1a2 I believe). The Mahal paper has its own thread:

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....-off-the-press
    pegasus modeling:
    sample": "Punjabi_Jat:Sapporo_AGUser",
    "fit": 1.1506,
    "IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3": 43.33,
    "TKM_Gonur1_BA": 31.67,
    "RUS_Sintashta_MLBA": 25,
    "closestDistances": [

    avatar credit goes out to aaronbee2010

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  12. #1109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapporo View Post
    There is a 2017 paper from Mahal with data on Jatt Sikhs and Hindu Jaats and a more recent paper on Brokpa Dards from Ladakh which also has some Rajasthan and Jatt Sikh Y-DNA (it's mostly numbers related to L1a2 I believe). The Mahal paper has its own thread:

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....-off-the-press
    Mahal got his data for haryana jats/jaats and sikh jatts from the nagy paper. Might have gotten some sikh samples from elsewhere as well but as far as the jaats are concerned we return yet again to nagy 2007.

  13. #1110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shorrsbones View Post
    Interesting! Could you tell where did you find about Ydna frequencies of rors?

    As for Jatts, It seems Mahal's data is a bit off. More on the topic here, from the 44th post onwards (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....541#post650541).

    In general, Jatts have about similar frequencies of Haplogroups with other punjabi communities, with the exception being very low H haplogroup and L haplogroup being more than R2.
    Haryana Jaat yDNA nevgen predictions : https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....bi-Jatts/page8

    Here is the list on google docs: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...htmlview#gid=0

    Ultimately all of the Haryana Jaat data comes from that old Nagy 2007 study which only used y-str. So the data is low quality, but it is all we have. What we need is a new study on Haryana Jaat yDNA which uses the new methods like looking for SNPs. I have heard that there are other sources with many samples of Punjabi Jatt yDNA, but none for Haryana Jaats.

    There is a new-ish one for rors: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6288199/

    Download document S2.

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