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Thread: Medieval Alemannic graveyard

  1. #1
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    Medieval Alemannic graveyard

    As a total newbie I've been trying to find out if I could pin my results on any particular place or time in history , which is probably what everyone does . Up until recently I had "narrowed down"
    My ancestors to Western Europe. But I've read that a graveyard excavation at Niederstotzingen has found Skeletons of Alemanni people with a Marker that I have (R1b s21) Z347
    Does that mean they are MY ancestors or am I being an idiot
    Any information will be much appreciated . I can send anyone a copy of the read out if that makes any difference

  2. #2
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    So basically; it’s not impossible but it’s probably unlikely that they are one of your direct ancestors. About 25% of M269+ men are S21+. I don’t know how many are Z347+ but Z347 probably covers such a large area and has so many living descendants that it’s unlikely. Even if they are not a direct ancestor; they still are paternally related to you and your ancestors could have possibly been near by. I could be wrong though. Stay tuned here because I’m sure someone with a more thorough answer than me will come along in this thread.

    Either way it’s pretty cool if you ask me. My clade is literally so small that we will probably never find an ancient specimen who is positive for it so all I can do is hope they find more early guys like rise98.

    Edit: I should have said about 25% of R1b M269 men are S21+ not just European men. There is about 110 million M269+ men in Europe I think.
    Last edited by Revmac; 09-11-2019 at 09:00 PM.
    “Nought may endure but mutability” —Percy Bysshe Shelley

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    We cannot say where ANY ancient remains are the direct Y-DNA ancestor of ANYONE living today, but we use ancient DNA remains to help us narrow down where the various haplogroups originated and migrated. I maintain a spreadsheet documenting all of the Ancient/Medieval/Royal R1b-U106+ (S21) remains discovered to date at: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing
    Gedmatch DNA: M032736 Gedcom: 6613110.
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    co-administrator: Y-DNA R-U106 Haplogroup Project

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    Quote Originally Posted by HarryWatson View Post
    As a total newbie I've been trying to find out if I could pin my results on any particular place or time in history , which is probably what everyone does . Up until recently I had "narrowed down"
    My ancestors to Western Europe. But I've read that a graveyard excavation at Niederstotzingen has found Skeletons of Alemanni people with a Marker that I have (R1b s21) Z347
    Does that mean they are MY ancestors or am I being an idiot
    Any information will be much appreciated . I can send anyone a copy of the read out if that makes any difference
    Don't ever think your assumptions are idiotic, if an assumption is honestly made (or an honest question is asked), the only idiocy is likely to be in the answers.

    Re the DNA from an ancient site. What we all need to do (it takes time) is understand that the only age traceable DNA lines we have are 1) our mtDNA and 2) our Y-DNA.
    But these are only a tiny part of who we are today.

    My Y-DNA is R1b-S1194 which is a parallel branch to U106 & P312. The evidence to date says that my haplogroup mutation of R1b-S1194 may have occurred somewhere in the Nth European Plains around 4,800 years ago.
    My family came from Devon England and all the family research says we have been there at least 1,000 years. The probability and the Y-DNA trail, points to an ancestor with R1b-S1194 and of Scandinavian/Germanic origin coming to Britain between 790AD & 1066AD.

    Our English ancestral village (Ottery St Mary, Devon) is pretty much in an area dominated by P312 'Celtic' peoples and there are quite a few U106 (Scandinavian/Germanic aka Anglo-Saxon-Frisians) peoples as well. >>We S1194 are about 0.5% of the Devon Y-DNA.<<

    So what am I ? - What is the bulk of my current autosomal DNA ?. Autosomal representing all my recent generations of ancestors. Because we have been living in a Celtic dominated region for so long, the dominant DNA of our Devon family is now Celtic except for the line of Y-DNA which we know is from a Scandinavian/Germanic people. They, in turn, apparently got that from a European Cordedware people who in turn appear to have got that from a Steppes Nomads based people.

    My appearance fits a Celtic profile better than any other even if my Y-DNA (5,000 years ago) was of Asian Steppes nomads. I sure don't resemble them today.

    So looking at my autosomal DNA, and how many people contributed to that, lets count them. Just to add perspective lets choose a reproduction period of 25 years as an average:-

    Year__Gens___Numbers of ancestors
    1945 Gen 01 = 0001 x Me
    1920 Gen 02 = 0002 x Parents
    1895 Gen 03 = 0004 x Grand Parents (GP)
    1870 Gen 04 = 0008 x Great Grand Parents (GGP)
    1845 Gen 05 = 0016 x GGGP
    1820 Gen 06 = 0032 x GGGGP
    1795 Gen 07 = 0064 x GGGGGP
    1770 Gen 09 = 0128 x GGGGGGP
    1745 Gen 10 = 0256 x GGGGGGGP
    1720 Gen 11 = 0512 x GGGGGGGGP
    1695 Gen 12 = 1024 x GGGGGGGGGP
    1670 Gen 13 = 2048 x GGGGGGGGGGP
    1645 Gen 14 = 4096 x GGGGGGGGGGGP
    1620 Gen 15 = 8192 x GGGGGGGGGGGGP

    Am sure you can see where this is heading. Think about how many G*Ps you had 500 years ago let alone 1000 or 2000.
    Point is that beyond about 6 gens back, our bulk of DNA (autosomal) has become so diluted it is very hard to dissect it.
    Unless we live or lived in a very isolated community, most of us are 'Heinz 57-varieties' of ethnic makeup.

    In summary, the *only* use our Y-DNA is to us, is to be able to say, what and where a male ancestor was at some past distant time. Just how much we resemble that person will vary dramatically depending on if we are part of the new world diaspora or still live relatively undiluted, in the area the ancient burial ancestor Y-DNA was found.
    Last edited by dsm; 09-12-2019 at 10:52 PM. Reason: clarifications - added village name

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    Quote Originally Posted by HarryWatson View Post
    As a total newbie I've been trying to find out if I could pin my results on any particular place or time in history , which is probably what everyone does . Up until recently I had "narrowed down"
    My ancestors to Western Europe. But I've read that a graveyard excavation at Niederstotzingen has found Skeletons of Alemanni people with a Marker that I have (R1b s21) Z347
    Does that mean they are MY ancestors or am I being an idiot
    Any information will be much appreciated . I can send anyone a copy of the read out if that makes any difference
    They probably aren't your direct ancestors, but technically they are "related" as they are on the same branch of the R1b tree as you (though in terms of terminal positions we won't know).

    For example, there was an Iron Age sample from Denmark that is I-Z59, and technically I am related to that individual as we would share a common ancestor.

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    I can't thank everyone enough for the assistance you've given me and I feel I understand things a bit better now .

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    My maternal grandfather is Suevi or Alemanni from Tubingen.
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  10. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by HarryWatson View Post
    I can't thank everyone enough for the assistance you've given me and I feel I understand things a bit better now .
    That is one of the major reasons why this forum was created.
    Gedmatch DNA: M032736 Gedcom: 6613110.
    Gedmatch Genesis: WH4547538
    co-administrator: Y-DNA R-U106 Haplogroup Project

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  12. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by HarryWatson View Post
    As a total newbie I've been trying to find out if I could pin my results on any particular place or time in history , which is probably what everyone does . Up until recently I had "narrowed down"
    My ancestors to Western Europe. But I've read that a graveyard excavation at Niederstotzingen has found Skeletons of Alemanni people with a Marker that I have (R1b s21) Z347
    Does that mean they are MY ancestors or am I being an idiot
    Any information will be much appreciated . I can send anyone a copy of the read out if that makes any difference
    Speaking of the U106+ Niederstotzingen samples here are my notes on them:

    Concerning kinship relations at Niederstotzingen: Both kinship estimates show first-degree relatedness for pairs 1/3A, 1/6, 1/9, 3A/9, and 9/12B and second-degree relatedness for 1/12B, 3A/6, 3A/12B, and 6/9. Except for 12C, all of the Niederstotzingen North individuals are detectably and closely related. (Niederstotzingen North, in this paper, refers to grave 1, 3a, 6, 9, 12b, and 12c - all are Northern in their autosomal DNA).


    Niederstotzingen Grave 1: R-U106/S21>Z381/S263>Z301/S499> L48> Z9> Z347> Z328> FGC10367>Z319>S1734>FGC363>FGC23165>FGC23143 per Alex Williamson. Male aged 40-50 years of age. Grave good: Lance, shield, saex, double-edged sword (spatha). Shared drift/autosomal: top 3 pops: Lithuanian, Icelandic, Norwegian. Isotope analysis: most likely local to the area or a similar area to Niederstotzingen. (Only grave 10 and 3b showed up as non-local in their isotope analysis).

    Niederstotzingen Grave 3a: R-U106/S21>Z381/S263>Z301/S499>L48> Z9>Z347> Z328>FGC10367>Z319>S1734>FGC363>FGC23165 per Alex Williamson. Male aged 20-30 years of age and archeological context: Byzantine. Grave goods: Lance, shield, saex, double-edged sword (spatha), arrows, and bridle with silver pressed sheet metal fittings of Byzantine ornamentation. Shared drift/autosomal: top 3 pops: Norwegian, Icelandic, Irish. Isotope analysis: most likely local to the area or a similar area to Niederstotzingen. (Only grave 10 and 3b showed up as non-local in their isotope analysis).

    Niederstotzingen Grave 6: R-U106/S21>Z381/S263>Z301/S499>L48>Z9>Z347> Z328>FGC10367>Z319>S1734 per Alex Williamson. Male aged 14-17 years of age and archeological context: Lombardian. Grave goods: Double-edged sword (spatha), belt and bridle originating from Lombard Italy. Belt ornamentation dated to beginning of 7th century. Shared drift/autosomal: top 3 pops: Lithuanian, Norwegian, Icelandic. Isotope analysis: most likely local to the area or a similar area to Niederstotzingen. (Only grave 10 and 3b showed up as non-local in their isotope analysis).

    Niederstotzingen Grave 9: R-U106/S21>Z381/S263>Z301/S499>L48>Z9>Z347> Z328>FGC10367>Z319>S1734>FGC363>FGC23165>FGC23143 per Alex Williamson. Male aged 40-50 years of age and archeological context: Franconian (Frankish). Grave goods: Lance, shield, shield handle, saex, double-edged ring sword (ring-pommel spatha). The ring sword has a silver pommel and bead golden decorative button, and the lance engravings indicate Frankish origin. Shared drift/autosomal: top 3 pops: Lithuanian, Icelandic, Irish. Isotope analysis: most likely local to the area or a similar area to Niederstotzingen. (Only grave 10 and 3b showed up as non-local in their isotope analysis).

    Niederstotzingen Grave 12b: R-U106/S21>Z381/S263>Z301/S499>L48>Z9>Z347> Z328>FGC10367>Z319 per Alex Williamson. Male aged 30-40 years of age and archeological context: Byzantine. Grave goods: Double-edged sword (spatha), lance, shield, lamellar helmet-Byzantine style. Shared drift/autosomal: top 3 pops: Lithuanian, Irish, Icelandic. Isotope analysis: most likely local to the area or a similar area to Niederstotzingen. (Only grave 10 and 3b showed up as non-local in their isotope analysis).

    Niederstotzingen Grave 12c: R-U106/S21>Z381/S263>Z301/S499>L48>Z9>Z347> Z328>FGC10367>Z319 per Alex Williamson. Male aged 20-30 years of age. Grave goods: Double-edged sword (spatha). Shared drift/autosomal: top 3 pops: Icelandic, Norwegian, Lithuanian. Isotope analysis: most likely local to the area or a similar area to Niederstotzingen. (Only grave 10 and 3b showed up as non-local in their isotope analysis).

    and a link to my current aDNA U106+ sample/burial list... I haven't added the samples from the recent Viking paper yet as I am waiting on the raw data to be released and for someone like Alex W. to get a hold of it and look for further downstream SNPs etc... then I can write up an entry for each one etc starting with the DF98 guy from Skara ;-)... https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing

    Cheers,
    Cathal (Charlie)
    Y-DNA: 4th GGF Adam Weaver born 1785 in Pennsylvania (most likely German) - Sergeant, US 17th Inf, War of 1812: R1b-U106-Z381-Z156-Z305/306/307-Z304-DF98-S1911-S1894/S1900-S4004/FGC14818/FGC14823-FGC14816/FGC14817 shared with 6drif-3!

    mtDNA: 3rd GGM Bridget Dana b. 1843 Ireland - T2b2b - Pagan Migrant Icelander SSG-A3 (grave 4?) - Sílastađir in Eyjafjarđarsýsla, North Iceland is T2b2b. Relative of King Bela III of Hungary (his Y-DNA and autosomal kinsman buried near him had mtDNA T2b2b1)!

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