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Thread: R1b1a2a1 (L23+) - L23EE Type, Z2103+ Predicted_ [DYS-389II 31-33][DYS-464AB[14-15]

  1. #11
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    This thread would not be complete without acknowledging some who have contributed so much of their time,energy, expertise, in exploring new ideas. Thank you.

    Way back in 2010 !

    L23EE. 20 Jul 2010/ K. Nordtvedt/L.Mayka/P. Gwozdz

    http://www.gwozdz.org/PolishClades.html#R1bL23EE

    R1b1a2a2;Hypothetical;division of-Z2103-R1b EE type-R1b-EE-Eastern Europe
    R1b1a2a1a1c2b1b;Hypothetical;division of-Z159-R1b A type-R1b-A-Ashkenazi
    L23EE. 20 Jul 2010 documentation: This type is positive for the L23 SNP, hence this type is a hypothetical future haplogroup within the current haplogroup R1b1b2a. This type is negative for L51, the only current known branch - R1b1b2a1 - of L23.

    Nordtvedt pointed out the cluster for this type some years ago, calling it R1b-EE (Eastern Europe). Mayka suggested the L23EE code to me.

    There are only 6 samples in the Polish Project in this type (13 Jul 2010). SBP = 10.7% using all 67 markers, which is excellent for such a small type. The cutoff is 12, but if you match at step 10 through 12 I estimate your probability of belonging at slightly better than 80%, so you really should test for the L51 SNP - a negative result would boost the probability to about 95%. In the Polish Project, there is a gap of 5 - no samples from steps 12 through 16 and all 6 of the samples from step 17 to 20 are L51+. So this type is very well isolated in haplospace in Poland.

    On Ysearch (code CX94E) there are also 6 samples in this type (13 Jul 2010), but 3 are the same as in the Polish Project. There are 7 samples at step 12 (vs zero in the Polish Project) and only 2 of those 12 are East European - one each in Germany and Russia. That means this type is not well isolated world wide, meaning samples near the cutoff are highly uncertain. I interpret this as evidence that my definition of L23EE type is really a Polish subtype within a larger L23EE cluster.

    This type has evidence of structure. A number of markers are bimodal with no obvious correlation. To me, that means there are probably at least 3 sub-clades that may become evident as data accumulates.

    If you match this type closely at 37 markers I highly recommend getting the full 67, because the statistics for assignment are not convincing at 37 markers. Even at 67 markers, I recommend the L51 test; a negative result confirms membership in this hypothetical clade, and a positive result means you are not a member. We do not know the probability of outsiders matching L23EE in STR values, particularly outside Poland, so there is still a slim chance of a surprise - a close match to the definition but with L51+.



    Last edited by Silesian; 05-15-2014 at 04:53 AM.
    R1b-Z2109+-Novotitorovka culture 3300–2700 BC, Yamnaya culture 3300–2600 BC, Afanasievo culture 3300 BCE — 2500 BCE, Vucedol culture-3000 BC – 2200 BC, Catacomb culture-2800–2200 BC, Okunevo culture-2859-2350BC, Eastern Bell Beaker culture-2800–1800 BCE, Poltavka culture-2700—2100 BC, Potapovka-Grachyevka culture 2121-1942 BC, Sintashta-culture 2100–1800 BCE, Sarmatian culture-4th, 3rd and 2nd centuries BCE....modern day Bashkir

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by brygian View Post
    Silesian, you may be right. The predicted P312 might turn out to be CTS7822. FTDNA predicts (on a 25 STR marker base) that I am P312 since my Geno 2.0 results disappeared but I am CTS9219+ (and CTS7822+) indeed.
    I just put through my order for CTS9219 on the 10th/batched on 15th; pending results.
    In the meantime we can speculate I'm positive for CTS9219 and compare our strs [25]

    314859-(Pomak) Bulgaria:13-24-14-12-[11-11]-12-12-12-13-13-29-16-[8-10]-12-11-25-15-19-30-[14-14-15-16]
    99SC2- Gliwice, Poland:12-24-14-10-[11-14]-12-12-11-14-13-31-16-[9-10]-11-11-25-15-19-33-[14-15-16-19]


    If both of us end up being R-CTS9219 it looks like genetic distance of 20/25markers, if I calculate correctly {GD20-25markers}.

    Correction-Update
    Rathna has helped me, so full credit and thanks. Genetic distance between us is 17 out of 25GD17-25markers. Using the Klad calculator that shows:275 generations
    L, length of haplotype M, number of mutations between 2 hpt TMRCA, gen
    12 0 0
    25 17 275
    37 0 0
    67 0 0


    @30years per generation roughly 8250 years

    Here Rathna used snp method similar to Michael.
    [COLOR="#000000"]
    Unfortunately Ware didn't send me (and I'd say us) his Big Y I asked for and to compare with the Nochev's. We have only the similar test done by Rootsy et al. upon the "Levites R1a", and the SNPs amongst the three subclades of R-Z2107* (L277, Z2106 and L584) have about 45 SNPs. If we use 150 years for SNP, as Michal did for R1a, we'd have 6750 years. If we use 180 years for SNP we have more than 8000 years.
    Last edited by Silesian; 05-15-2014 at 01:29 PM.
    R1b-Z2109+-Novotitorovka culture 3300–2700 BC, Yamnaya culture 3300–2600 BC, Afanasievo culture 3300 BCE — 2500 BCE, Vucedol culture-3000 BC – 2200 BC, Catacomb culture-2800–2200 BC, Okunevo culture-2859-2350BC, Eastern Bell Beaker culture-2800–1800 BCE, Poltavka culture-2700—2100 BC, Potapovka-Grachyevka culture 2121-1942 BC, Sintashta-culture 2100–1800 BCE, Sarmatian culture-4th, 3rd and 2nd centuries BCE....modern day Bashkir

  4. #13
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    That R-P312 is just another for a R1b-CTS9219 is just another FTDNA haplogroup mistake.
    Last edited by Joe B; 05-15-2014 at 08:01 PM. Reason: A more positive tone in needed, IMO
    YFull R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>Z2106>Z2108>Y14512>Y20971>Y22199, ISOGG R1b1a1a2a2c1b Y14416, FTDNA R-M64

  5. #14
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    Okay I had no idea.
    Last edited by Silesian; 05-16-2014 at 04:42 AM.
    R1b-Z2109+-Novotitorovka culture 3300–2700 BC, Yamnaya culture 3300–2600 BC, Afanasievo culture 3300 BCE — 2500 BCE, Vucedol culture-3000 BC – 2200 BC, Catacomb culture-2800–2200 BC, Okunevo culture-2859-2350BC, Eastern Bell Beaker culture-2800–1800 BCE, Poltavka culture-2700—2100 BC, Potapovka-Grachyevka culture 2121-1942 BC, Sintashta-culture 2100–1800 BCE, Sarmatian culture-4th, 3rd and 2nd centuries BCE....modern day Bashkir

  6. #15
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    He is correctly placed in the _b3a. R1b-M269: L23+ Z2103+ Z2105+ CTS7822+/Z2110+ and CTS9219+ group of the R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project. The new FTDNA haplotree and the screwy haplogroup assignments are messing everybody up. It's important to follow the project haplotrees.
    Since CTS7822 was tested at YSEQ, it's very understandable why I am in the present category. With a little patience, it will get straghtened out.
    Last edited by Joe B; 05-15-2014 at 08:01 PM.
    YFull R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>Z2106>Z2108>Y14512>Y20971>Y22199, ISOGG R1b1a1a2a2c1b Y14416, FTDNA R-M64

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    314859-(Pomak) Bulgaria:13-24-14-12-[11-11]-12-12-12-13-13-29-16-[8-10]-12-11-25-15-19-30-[14-14-15-16]
    99SC2- Gliwice, Poland:12-24-14-10-[11-14]-12-12-11-14-13-31-16-[9-10]-11-11-25-15-19-33-[14-15-16-19]
    All known CTS9219+ have DYS426=12, DYS388=12, DYS392=13, DYS454=11 and DYS448=19. This is also the case with you. Do you have more STR results?

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    Quote Originally Posted by brygian View Post
    All known CTS9219+ have DYS426=12, DYS388=12, DYS392=13, DYS454=11 and DYS448=19. This is also the case with you. Do you have more STR results?
    Also DYS385a=11, DYS459b=10 and DYS464=14. There are more markers that are the same for CTS9219+ but we have only a handful of test results and we cannot be sure what is characteristic and what not of this subclade. We have just two persons with Y-STR12, one with Y-STR25, one with Y-STR37, one with Y-STR67 and two with Y-STR111.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brygian View Post
    Also DYS385a=11, DYS459b=10 and DYS464=14. There are more markers that are the same for CTS9219+ but we have only a handful of test results and we cannot be sure what is characteristic and what not of this subclade. We have just two persons with Y-STR12, one with Y-STR25, one with Y-STR37, one with Y-STR67 and two with Y-STR111.
    U98VT from 1100's CE should in theory be our earliest dated sample. Here is cluster with names blotted out, closest to me Gliwice, Poland with
    GD between 14-19 {Using Klad calculator 1500+/-2000+/-}
    .
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...two-haplotypes


    U98VT-skeleton HB02/Podlazice, Ceskoslovensko-12-24-14-11-11-14-12-12-12 13 13 30 16 9 10 25 15 19 32 11 16 12 23 12 15 22
    2XHXQ-Kazakhstan 12 24 14 10 11 15 12 12 12 12 13 29 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15 15 16 17 11 10 19 23 16 16 19 18 37 38 12 12 12 12 14 12 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 11 10 23 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 22 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
    99SC2-Gliwice, Poland 12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 11 14 13 31 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 33 14 15 16 19 10 10 19 23 16 16 19 19 37 40 12 12 12 12 14 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 11 23 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 23 20 12 11 13 11 10 12 12
    CRQ37- Unknown 12 25 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 30 16 9 10 11 11 25 14 19 31 14 15 16 18 12 11 19 23 16 16 20 19 36 40 12 11 12 12 14 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 11 11 23 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 22 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
    D3TNG-Split, Croatia 12 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 12 13 29 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 32 14 15 16 18 11 12 19 23 15 16 19 18 38 38 12 12 12 12 14 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 11 23 23 16 10 12 12 14 8 22 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
    DB9H7-Preu฿en/Prussia, Germany 12 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 30 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 32 14 15 16 17 11 10 19 23 16 16 20 18 36 41 12 12 12 12 14 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 11 10 23 23 15 10 12 12 15 8 23 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
    FGK82-Majer, Austro-Hungarian Empire 12 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 31 14 15 16 18 11 11 19 23 16 16 19 17 37 40 12 12 12 12 13 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 11 11 23 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 22 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
    HW54G-Jแszsแg, Hungary 12 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 31 15 8 10 11 11 25 15 19 32 14 14 16 18 10 11 19 23 16 16 19 18 36 40 12 12 12 12 14 11 9 15 16 8 11 10 8 11 11 23 25 16 10 12 12 15 8 22 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
    NM4UQ-Hornํ Ves, Czech Republic 12 24 14 11 11 14 12 13 12 13 13 30 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 32 14 15 16 18 11 11 19 23 16 17 20 18 36 37 12 12 12 12 14 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 11 11 23 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 22 19 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
    NMZ4A-Bekhteevka, Korochanskij ujezd, Kurskaja gub, Russia 12 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 30 13 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 32 14 15 16 18 11 11 19 23 16 16 17 17 37 40 12 12 12 11 11 13 23 10 14 12 12 14 30 24 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 11 11 23 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 22 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 9 11 15 9 16 12 10 13 12 11 10 12 12 11 10 26 26 19 12
    P7U4J- Woloshka, Ukraine 12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 30 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 32 14 15 16 19 11 11 19 23 16 16 18 18 38 38 12 12 12 12 15 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 11 11 23 23 16 10 12 12 16 8 22 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
    RBNQT-Carani, Romania 12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 30 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 32 14 16 16 18 10 11 19 23 16 16 21 18 38 38 12 12 12 12 15 11 9 14 16 8 10 10 8 11 11 23 23 16 10 12 12 16 8 22 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
    WF567-Mokrany Nowe, Poland 12 24 14 11 11 13 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 9 10 11 11 25 14 19 30 14 15 17 18 11 10 19 21 16 16 19 18 36 39 12 12 12 12 14 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 11 23 23 16 10 12 12 14 8 22 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
    XQE85-Unknown 12 24 14 10 11 13 12 12 12 14 13 31 16 9 10 11 11 25 14 19 30 14 14 15 16 11 11 19 23 16 16 19 18 34 40 13 12 12 12 14 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 11 23 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 22 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
    Z27HX-Poland 12 23 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 30 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 34 15 15 16 18 10 10 19 23 16 16 20 19 36 39 13 12 12 12 14 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 11 11 23 23 16 10 12 12 16 8 22 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
    Z7AF9-R้ca (in Slovak), R้te (in Hungarian), Slovakia 12 24 14 11 11 11 12 12 11 13 13 31 16 9 9 11 11 25 15 19 31 14 15 16 18 11 11 19 23 16 16 19 18 37 40 12 12 12 12 14 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 11 11 23 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 22 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12


    It will be interesting to see more samples from Greece/Macedonia/Bulgaria/Albania.Perhaps a Northern Balkan and Southern Balkan cluster will emerge
    Last edited by Silesian; 05-16-2014 at 05:22 PM.
    R1b-Z2109+-Novotitorovka culture 3300–2700 BC, Yamnaya culture 3300–2600 BC, Afanasievo culture 3300 BCE — 2500 BCE, Vucedol culture-3000 BC – 2200 BC, Catacomb culture-2800–2200 BC, Okunevo culture-2859-2350BC, Eastern Bell Beaker culture-2800–1800 BCE, Poltavka culture-2700—2100 BC, Potapovka-Grachyevka culture 2121-1942 BC, Sintashta-culture 2100–1800 BCE, Sarmatian culture-4th, 3rd and 2nd centuries BCE....modern day Bashkir

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  13. #19
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    CTS9129 ^ (Dys561 = 16) ^ (Dys461 = 11) ^ (......) =>l23EE ?

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  15. #20
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    CTS-7822+,<Dys 561=15><Dys461=11>
    CTS-9219+<Dys 561=15/16><Dys461=11/12>

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