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Thread: DF27's arrival in Britain

  1. #1
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    DF27's arrival in Britain

    At the DF27 project at FTdna the question was asked, what is the earliest proof of DF27 in Britain? Does anyone have a reply to this?

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    The "earliest proof" type question isn't very useful, unless you happen to ask it about one of the three or four subclades belonging to the earliest dead guys who have been sequenced. But a lot of other guys died that same year, even if it was 2473 BC. They just haven't (1) lasted long enough, (2) been found, (3) gotten sequenced, and (4) belonged to one of the haplogroups or subclades the researchers knew to look for. Oddly enough, it's probably #4 that makes DF27, and some of its early subclades, less likely to be found than (for example) L21, or the U152 subclade L2.

    On the other hand, "Britain" (broadly speaking) is among the places being actively researched, lately. As distinguished from Belarus, or France.

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    I think if DF27 was found it would be in one of the hotspots in the South West of England or Cornwall.

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    On YFull, I have one distant British Y-STR match, but he has a different terminal SNP.

    Looking at formation time estimates, our subclades split ~3600 years before present.

    His most distant known ancestor was from 1600s Cornwall:

    born ca. 1670 prob. Cornwall, Eng. died 1710 Bucks Co., PA



    SNP matches are more relevant than STR matches, right?

    =====

    Based on STR matches, I have common ancestor with this Cornish guy ~3600 years ago.

    Based on SNP matches, I have common ancestor with some Spaniards ~2900 years ago.

    Cornwall-Poland-Spain, 1600-900 BCE, looks like Celtic connection ???
    Last edited by Tomenable; 11-21-2019 at 03:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EastAnglian View Post
    I think if DF27 was found it would be in one of the hotspots in the South West of England or Cornwall.
    Mitchellsince18something posted several heat maps a couple of years ago comparing DF27 and U152 in England proper. I’ll post them sometime tomorrow, but you are correct that DF27 density is greatest in South West England, particularly Cornwall and Devon. The only drawback is he used FTDNA kits who self reported MDKA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by de Burgh View Post
    At the DF27 project at FTdna the question was asked, what is the earliest proof of DF27 in Britain? Does anyone have a reply to this?
    My (personal) view is that most Z209 came to Britain with the Normans, though it doesn't necessarily need to include 100% of us. However, there are branchings of DF27+ earlier on the node tree, who may have settled in Britain or Ireland much earlier, although there is no concrete data to prove this yet, just modern living individuals on the ytree.
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 Stepney, London, UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster
    maternal-gf YDNA: ?? Gurr, James ~1740, Smarden, Kent, England.
    maternal-gm YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggf YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-Z17901. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton Ireland(?) 1800s

    other:
    Welch: early 1800s E-M84 Kent, England.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    On YFull, I have one distant British Y-STR match, but he has a different terminal SNP.

    Looking at formation time estimates, our subclades split ~3600 years before present.

    His most distant known ancestor was from 1600s Cornwall:

    born ca. 1670 prob. Cornwall, Eng. died 1710 Bucks Co., PA



    SNP matches are more relevant than STR matches, right?

    =====

    Based on STR matches, I have common ancestor with this Cornish guy ~3600 years ago.

    Based on SNP matches, I have common ancestor with some Spaniards ~2900 years ago.

    Cornwall-Poland-Spain, 1600-900 BCE, looks like Celtic connection ???
    Looks more like central European "Celtic", rather than that first late Neo/early bronze BB push who have all been L21+ to this point or had an ambiguous terminal SNP with nothing below P312.
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 Stepney, London, UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster
    maternal-gf YDNA: ?? Gurr, James ~1740, Smarden, Kent, England.
    maternal-gm YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggf YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-Z17901. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton Ireland(?) 1800s

    other:
    Welch: early 1800s E-M84 Kent, England.

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    Y-Full has just updated my SNP matches increasing them from 2 to 17 (!), and reduced TMRCA estimate from 3600 to 3400 ybp (or ~1400 BCE):



    ^^^
    Looks like I could be right when I first suggested that the link between Luggones / Lugii / Lugi was more than just name, but also shared origin?:

    https://kingsandconquerors.fandom.co...ugians/History

    ^^^
    Quote: "Among the easternmost Celtic tribes in Germania, the Lugii lived in the area which today roughly forms the meeting point between eastern Slovakia, southern Poland and western Ukraine (...) The Lugii name, also used by an insular Gaulish (British/Pictish) tribe in Scotland (...) In northern Iberia a sub-tribe of the Astures carried the name Luggones, and nearby were the similarly named Louguei sub-tribe of the Gallaeci. (...)"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lugi - in Britain/Scotland

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lugii - in Poland/Ukraine

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...eninsula#Celts - in Spain

    Honestly it is hard to find a better explanation. TMRCA around 1400 BCE is too late for Bell Beakers, too early for barbarian invasions of Rome.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 11-27-2019 at 02:39 PM.

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    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post594009

    This is a link to the three heat map/ pie graphs that Mitchell made up comparing U152 to DF27 in England proper.

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    I'm gonna go out on a limb and predict that lot of big surprises are coming up, including DF27 in Corded Ware. How's that for some bold prognostication? Either I don't know shit from Shinola, or I'm a genius.

    I think it's going to turn out that the Indo-Europeanization of Northern and Western Europe was a Corded Ware-to-Kurgan-Bell-Beaker thing in which DF27 was heavily involved.

    Sue me if I'm wrong.

    Last edited by rms2; 11-28-2019 at 03:34 AM.

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